To wonder who's life would be prioritised, mother or baby?

[splendidisolation]

Just one of those random train of thought questions that popped up in my head.

Imagine this theoretical scenario, a mother is giving birth and the doctor's have to decide whether to save her life or the newborn on its way out.
Ethically, which would they be forced to choose and why?

Imagine the mother's partner or a family member is present. Obviously horrific, but would they be asked to decide? Who makes that decision?

Not one of the posts responding to you Maryz is emotional or ignoring the facts.

Awful as each individual case is, it's the long term that matters for all the future women of Ireland. Such a strange statement. Honestly devoid of empathy and a reference to the future.

Individual cases do matter though. How many is too many?

And, to go back to the point of the thread, it's odd that so many people are vehemently pro abortion (even in cases where there is little risk to the mother) and yet would give up their life for their unborn child if it was almost born. At what point does the foetus become a baby?

(Not anti abortion but don't think I'd ever have one myself)

So I agree both with Maryz (that the Irish law as it stands would have allowed the woman to survive if she'd been looked after properly) and the others who say that an abortion granted sooner may have made a difference in this case. I'm not sure that this single tragic and unusual case means anything with regards to changing the law. Whether you are pro or anti abortion is not really relevant to this particular case.

I disagree, it is relevant for the reasons you have just stated. Under different laws, she would have had an abortion sooner and may have been saved. Seems highly relevant to me.

Hope you get the right result in the referendum. I know how hard so many women have fought for reproductive rights in Ireland.

But for fucks sake, please, don't use incorrect arguments and undermine the pro-abortion stance. Don't give the anti-abortion lot ammunition by quoting incorrect facts and non-legal based emotional arguments. That's why we lost the last referendums

No, I fear that the reason you lost the last referendums is because there are a lot of hardline religious zealots who ardently believe that life begins at conception and no amount of 'facts' are going to change their mind on that. If you keep saying that the current law is adequate, then what is the point of a referendum?

It is equally a fact that the constitution is unclear, hence the case of the brain dead woman had to be taken to court. The decision was largely based on the fact that the child was not likely to survive- we don't know the outcome had there been a direct conflict between their lives. It is also a fact that the ECHR deemed Irish law to be in breach of the fundamental rights under the European Convention. It is furthermore a fact that Ireland does not permit vulnerable child victims of rape to access safe and legal abortion unless they can fund a trip to another country themselves. This is not emotional nonsense, it is factual.

It probably won't convince the catholics though.

The solution is that the constitution only guarantees the rights of those who have been born and are no longer in utero. That is the only way forward as far as I am concerned.

Yes agreed, and I'm sure Maryz will too.

In 2013, new rules came into effect under Ireland's Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, to allow abortion when there is a real and substantial risk to a woman's life. However, the ban remains in cases of rape, incest, inevitable miscarriage and fatal foetal abnormality.

From this link:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41400836

Surely it depends on what has happened, if the mother has been in a serious accident or has terminal cancer, I think they would prioritise the baby (at the mothers wishes, if possible). In most other possible situations, the mother is prioritised, especially if she will make a full recovery afterwards. If it was the really theoretical, one kidney going, both need it scenario, I suspect the parents would get a say.

When DS was due I told DH that if anything happened I wanted them to save the baby over me - he said he'd 100% ignore my wishes . Thankfully the problem didn't arise.

AFAIK the referendum will be on whether to permit access to abortion in cases other than where the mother's life is at risk as a result of pregnancy. So even if one believes that the law is adequate in relation to the rare but tragic cases where termination is necessary to save the life of the woman, one can also believe that this doesn't go far enough and women should have bodily autonomy to decide that they don't want to be pregnant full stop.

But the problem is that the hard-line is taught in schools and pervades society and culture in Ireland. I can't see how anything will realistically change unless a change is made to stop seeing the fetus as a legal person with independent rights. Such a position is logically impossible because the fetus is directly dependent on the mother and therefore cannot have independent rights.

I also don't think writing off the cases discussed here helps to persuade the middle-voters. Why would it? If we are saying SH was purely medical negligence, not due to the law, why on earth would that persuade them to vote for a change to the law? Also, the pro-lifers use nothing but emotional blackmail, yet that seems to persuade the middle-voters to abstain from supporting abortion. Why would a cold, clinical approach change things?

You are allowed to go abroad to another country to have an abortion in Irish law.

So Irish law recognises that abortion does exist, it allows those citizens, females, who can get pregnant, to travel to another country to get an abortion.

What it does not allow is that those female citizens have those abortions in Ireland, unless under extreme circumstances.

So despite recognising the fetus as a legal person in Irish Law, those carrying that legal person are allowed to travel outside the country to have an abortion.

Obviously this is the case, otherwise all women of childbearing age would never be allowed to leave the country.

Sorry what does AFAIK mean? I've seen it on a number of threads now.

But you can stop pregnancy in Ireland now basically on demand during the 1st trimester, because of tablets available on the internet and a strong network of women who will supply them. Everyone knows this.

No one is going to scan every single parcel going to every single female of child bearing age.

The problem arises when life is in danger. The woman should always take precedence. Irish abortion laws do not cater for this. Those medics treating the woman face prosecution and loss of licence and livelihood which is why they stick to the law.

It obviously needs to change. The 8th amendment is an anachronism.

There's 3 things that need to be done - repeal the 8th, repeal the POLDPA, pass sensible law.

I have zero faith in Irish politicians to do that.

As far as I know mittens

Yes Olennas, unless they bring in legislation, simply repealing the 8th wouldn't have made a difference to SH.

This is false.