Children's Consent

[mamatobabes]

AIBU to expect my mother and other relatives to comply with my request to only hug or kiss my child if SHE wants them to?

DD is 18 months. I read a very interesting article online a year or so ago about teaching children from early on that their body is theirs, and that they can say no to any unwanted physical contact at any time from anyone. After a childhood growing up having half my face kissed off by my relatives (nothing untoward!) and feeling uncomfortable about saying 'I don't want you to' in case I upset someone it made sense to me. So OH and I decided that we'd be respecting our child's decisions on hugs, kissing, tickling etc.

She is now at an age where sometimes she says no to cuddles and kisses. Even if it's me or OH, if she says no we don't do it. However, my mother plus a few other (well meaning) relatives are really put out when we say 'she said no, please don't kiss her if she doesn't want to'. It's all 'ooh Grandma will have to steal a kiss then' and 'oh Aunty is sad now, go on, be a good good girl and give me a cuddle'.

I don't think for a second that any of them are any sort of risk or threat. They are caring and loving. But I do think they should allow her to make the decision. Cue lots of huffing, comments of 'there are exceptions for grandparents, surely, it's ridiculous', 'what's the harm?' etc etc etc.

AIBU?

And comparing relatives well known to a family who are not known ever to have shown any sort of interest in children to Jimmy Savile is fucking hysteria.

I was abused by my father, he wasn't known to have abused any children. I am amazed people think it's so rare when I know so many people who have been abused as children - more than half of the women in mine and DHs family, none abused by the same person, different parts of the country, different time periods. It's not that rare.

That seems a little bit OTT to me. Abuse by family members is also (thankfully) very rare indeed

Is it? How do you know?

From nspcc: "Child abuse is usually hidden from view and children may be too young, too scared or too ashamed to tell anyone about what is happening to them"

Child abuse within families is very secretive so statistics aren't available, even so, given the fact that many never come to light there were still almost 60,000 children identified in the UK last year as needing protection from abuse in the home, so not very rare at all really.

Anyway the point I and others are trying to make is that it's a very bad idea to teach children it's ok for adults to touch and kiss them when they clearly don't want them to, not even family members, it's not ok.

Ds is only 8 months old and is already very clear when he doesn't want a kiss. He will literally shove fil in the face to push him away.

It's really upset fil but both DH and I are adamant that Ds has the right to choose. It's not just about autonomy of ones body but a way for kids to learn how to set boundaries. How many people put up with crap in relationships because they have poor boundaries?

I agree that a child should be taught their body is theirs, so random requests gor hugs can be refused. Same for tickling. If my daughter says stop we stop. So I'm with you on that one.
However, I will insist on kiss/ hug when saying hello/ goodbye to family members. This is how I greet my parents/ DP's parents, and it is basic manners. Same thing for thank you for having us whenever we've been at someone's house.

if an adult was to turn down a cuddle with Granny by yelling 'Respect my wishes' in her face they'd probably get sectioned and wouldn't find themselves very welcome amongst their relatives anymore.

LOL

It was fairly obvious that the child only says 'respect my wishes' if their earlier polite refusals were met with nagging and persuasion to change their mind.

So if Granny is so persistent in continuing to demand a cuddle against an adult's will to the point of them having to yell "respect my wishes" in Granny's face, either Granny's really asked for it or it's Granny that needs the sectioning.

I understand the reasoning.
My only reservation is that in a say we are saying you can say no to a cuddle / your body is yours etc. but at the same time you can't say no when we change your nappy / help you wipe / give you a bath...
Maybe it makes more sense when they are 3-4yo+ ?

I'm not a cuddly person and my daughter looks to be following me already at 10 months. I've had to keep telling my DSD who's 8 to stop trying to pick her up for hugs and kisses all the time because DD screams and clearly doesn't want contact. DSD seems to think she should always want to hug her as she's her sister.

I'm with you OP but can see how some people may not understand the reasoning.

Remember also there are many many threads on MN about unwanted physical contact by other adults - handshakes, kissing, double kissing, hugs (mumsnetty or otherwise), touching one's bump. If adults are allowed to object to these things, so are children.

My devotedly churchgoing grandmother is on record as having said: "ugh, the way people sneeze into their hand and then hold it out expecting you to shake it during the sign of peace - it makes you want to keep your gloves on!" Might children think like this about physical contact (even if they might be the ones most likely to sneeze into their hands)?

Yanbu.

My ds actually went through a stage where he wouldn't kiss or cuddle me.

Then at 12 he suddenly wanted cuddles again and started kissing me on the cheek to say goodbye etc!
The hugs now are more the lolopy sort where he rests his full body weight on me

We used to say"kisses please, it's time to go" to the DC as we left or family left. The DC could choose to give kisses or blow kisses.

It was our compromise to DC choosing contact or not and acknowledging family feelings.

I honestly think it was easier with our oldest though because he was a boy and people used to laugh at him being "boyish" and not wanting kisses. There was far more expectation that DD would accept kisses and cuddles.

Isn't there a difference though between 'I want to touch you because I want a kiss/cuddle with you whether or not you agree' - ie for the adult's enjoyment - and 'I need to touch you because you need a clean nappy/this medicine/to be washed to be safe and comfortable' - ie in child's best interests?

@Urubu That is a very fair point. Myself and OH both have to do thing 'to' DD which she sometimes objects to now - changing nappies, brushing teeth, wiping hands and her face. I suppose I feel differently about those things because they are hygiene basics, and completely necessary/non negotiable and always will be. She will always need to be clean. When she kicks off, I do try to explain why I'm doing them ('you've done a poo, it's stinky I need to clean it or you'll get a sore bottom') How much she understands at 18 months is anyone's guess, but she pulls faces and sniffs to show 'stinky'. She also pokes her tongue out and goes 'errrrgh' for dirty at her old nappy once it's off so she gets it, I think.

As she gets older, I'm teaching her to do those things herself (only wiping hands/face and helping to brush her own teeth once I've given them a good going over first at the moment) so eventually if she doesn't want me to do them, she'll be able to do them herself. Roll on the day I don't have to change her nappies anymore that's all I can say!

Yes I agree mamatobabe, just saying from the child's point of view it might be difficult to understand the difference. But that doesn't mean YABU at all.

My MIL was trying to get my nephew IL(?) to hug me and I just automatically popped out with "it's ok nephew you don't have to how about a high five". She looked at me like I had told him to fuck off my DS will be taught what he wants goes when it comes to physical contact. I'm not v touchy-feely myself so sensitive to being grabbed and kissed by in-law relatives.

unrelated but PEOPLE WHO ALLOW MY BABY TO PUT THEIR FINGERS IN HIS MOUTH. lord give me strength to not cut them off, Aladdin style.

YANBU. I completely agree that children should be taught about this kind of consent from an early age.

Can I ask some questions to those who take this approach though? Not being goady at all, I just haven't reached this stage yet this DC1 (7 months) and it hasn't come up so I'm wondering how to handle it.

What age do you start asking permission for contact? Or as parents, do you not? I cuddle and kiss DS all the time; I don't ask beforehand because he can't reply yet! Maybe I should?! If he indicated that he didn't want me to somehow though, I would stop.

Also, did you explain your stance to relatives before the issue arose or just when the situation of cuddles/kisses occurred and child said no?

I could be over-thinking this.
Sorry to jump on OP.

I think it's essential to teach children boundaries and bodily autonomy. Not just for them to learn if for themselves, but also to teach them about other people.

One of my nieces is expected to hug/kiss/cuddle people on demand. Equally she expects my younger DD's (3.5 and 1) to cede to her demands for hugs/kisses/being picked up.

Teaching them teaches them both ways.

@Naschkatze I started with this approach when my DD was old enough to start making her own wants known or object to things (other that just crying, like all small babies do). As I said she's 18 months now, so she can quite clearly say 'yes' or 'no' to things and generally understands most of what I say to her. All babies are different of course. For us it started probably when she was about 12-14 months. She'd start shaking her head or pushing things away for no if she didn't want another spoon of food, or to put on her socks, or have her nappy changed.

I can tell when she doesn't want a kiss or cuddle. She says no to me even! I will say 'can Mummy have a kiss?' and she shakes her little head and says 'no'. Either that or if I put my face near her while I'm asking, she'll push me away or put her hand out in front of her. With family she does the same, turns her face away or runs off.

With other people, I started to ask them not to do it when she started objecting. I don't waffle on about body autonomy in toddlers because you do sound like a hippy dippy dope, but I do say 'she's said no, now leave her please. We don't force her to kiss and cuddle if she doesn't want to'. To mixed reaction, hence the thread!

Pinkflamingo are you seriously asking WHY? when we KNOW that children are most likely to be abused by relatives - in the case of very young children like this usually very close relatives, I was on the periphery of a case involving a grandfather perpetrating appalling abuse on a 6 months old baby.

Stranger danger is actually now widely considered by agencies and professionals that work in this arena to have done a lot more harm than good because it made people wrongly think of those they knew/were related to as 'safe'. It's not recommended that it be taught or certainly not with the same weight that it once was.

"Abuse by family members is also (thankfully) very rare indeed." You think so? That's not been my experience professionally or personally. If anything due to lack of reporting, prosecution and conviction most agencies that work in this area think it's far more common than is thought.

"Okay, I don't know. I am assuming, which, without evidence to the contrary, I think is normal and healthy" there IS evidence to the contrary, physical and in the high number of adults in the mental health system and who are addicts etc who are in that situation BECAUSE they were abused.

"who are not known ever to have shown any sort of interest in children to" how do you think abusers behave around children in view of other adults? They're not stupid, they rarely display clearly visible risky behaviour that's how they get away with it.

I'm another that was abused, by my father. Yes this colours my views but I don't believe that's a negative thing.

Personal experience friendship wise out of all my friends only 3 have never been sexually abused/harassed by a relative.

I also worked in elderly care for several years and found that an alarmingly high number of people (male and female) were sexually abused as children.

Sorry meant to say a couple other things -

Yanbu op, you're absolutely right to raise your child to be able to keep themselves safe and not accept unwanted physical contact.

I don't believe age is an excuse for not understanding this. My mother even knowing now of the abuse is still a bloody nightmare for trying to make the grandchildren kiss/hug her.

But my ex-ils (who never even knew about my fathers abuse) and who are a good bit older than my parents (in their 80's/90's now) never had a problem with this and never expected any of their grandchildren to kiss/hug if they didn't want to.

It's about keeping children safe and teaching them to feel totally confident and comfortable in not accepting physical contact they are uncomfortable with.

I totally agree, although it is important to explain to people about boundaries, as it's probably something they've never thought of before.

I still hate forced affection. I can't even bear to shake hands. Most people who know me know how much I hate shaking hands, so we always do a a fist bump instead .

No, sadly abuse by a family member is not rare at all, as a number of us on mumsnet are only too aware.

No one is suggesting, though, that the Granny or Auntie who the child doesn't want to kiss is an abuser. For me, the point is that children need to be taught from an early age that they have the right to say no, that their body is their own. I wish I'd been taught that as a child.

My DD2 in particular is very reluctant to have cuddles with other adults apart from myself and DH, and Granny now. She offended my MIL considerably by her clinginess and reluctance to go to her, but I'm not prepared to force her.

Graphista, I'm sorry to hear about your past experiences but I do feel that this has somewhat skewed your view. Yes, the majority of abuse in children is usually by a close relative but I honestly don't know how not kissing Grandma goodbye is going to protect them in the long run. If somebody is going to abuse a child then it will be, more than likely, when they are left alone with that child because they are trusted and then who knows what could go on, whether the toddler has learnt to say no or not. I just don't want to ring my children up to assume that everybody they know is a potential threat to them. If I am supervising whilst they give their auntie/uncle/cousin or whoever a kiss and a cuddle then I don't see the harm in them doing so.

Pink flamingo - do you have any experience of how lots of child abusers groom? They don't start with a full on rape - they gradually work on breaking down their intended victims boundaries. Hugging them a little bit longer than necessary, kissing a little closer to the mouth each time, patting/tapping bottoms more frequently...

If they simply went from acceptable physical contact to a clear act of abuse they would get away with it far less than they do because victims would recognise the difference far more easily.

They bank on being able to persuade the victims and anyone the victims tell that it was a 'misunderstanding', a 'mistake' 'unintentional' etc - it's also how they test if a potential victim is likely to recognise abuse and if they'll tell.