to consider reporting this family for having lied to the school?

[mnbvcx445566]

Two parents and one child. They live nowhere near the primary state school they applied for and got into. I think - am pretty sure - they used a different address to the one they live at.
School very sought after. Shall I report them?

I've looked carefully into myself and this is what I think:

1- I am not jealous. If I had the chance to do the same I would not. I would like my child to go to a great state school so they are lucky for that but I would not play the way they did.

2- If I report them the child will have problems at school (? don't quite know what happens in those cases). The parents might have a breakdown or something having to face the backlash. Obviously they have brains and made their choice and would only pay the consequences of their actions but - I - would have precipitated the situation by reporting them. Maybe the system is so fucked anyway that what they did is not that big of a deal. Surely the school should have done 1000 checks before awarding places so there might be something I do not know. What I do know is that they live miles from that school, which has a very very small catchment area.

3- I should report them because if my child did not get into that school 'legally' I would despise people who took advantage of a loophole and took 'my child's place'.

WWYD?

I am a long-time poster/user but I have opened a different account as I do not want to be recognised. (If I do not want to face them and tell them that they are committing an illegal/immoral action does it mean that I am in the wrong thinking of calling the school anonymously?)

No, many things aren't. The fact is they have a place nearby that they rent, so all above board.

I'm pretty sure that the two properties thing - e.g. family normally live in house 3 miles away, but pretend that they are living in a house 100m away that they own and normally rent out to others - also counts as fraud where school admissions is concerned.

So she's not your friend but you know the child doesn't have SENs for sure. How do you know for sure then?

Only 3 people at my DSs previous school knew he had ASD. It was nobody else's business. Especially those who weren't people I classed as friends.

Why do people keep repeating 'you have too much time on your hands'?
I have spent a grand total of 5 hours on this whilst cooking cleaning watching a video shopping having a walk. Really? In the past 3 months you have not spent 10 hours doing something that doesn't bring anything home to you? Does nothing bother you enough to talk to someone about it or think about it?
Come on, it takes 5 minutes to find a catchment area. I am sure you spent five minutes doing something totally useless today.

And if we were talking about getting a spa voucher fraudulently who cares, but we are talking about children's education and future.

I am disappointed that you have decided not to report. As I said up thread, you don't need to have proof. That is for the council to investigate. And you wouldn't find out the final decision.

As you say, if she has committed fraud she has taken away the place of another child who should have got into this school. That is wrong.

Please ignore the "mind your own business" nonsense no this thread and report. Whilst councils do carry out checks to try and catch fraudulent or misleading applications, they don't catch all of them. The only way to stamp this out is if people report.

Myrtle it's fraud because the address you legally have to apply from is the one where the child is living on the closing date for applications in January.

Owning more than one property does not give you a choice of address.

Personally I wouldn't report unless I was pretty sure fraud had occurred.

If I was pretty sure, I would report. I would phrase it in terms of 'I have cause to believe that possible fraud has taken place ...' becaue it's not possible to be 100% sure.

I would do this on the basis that any action taken to remove the child from school will be in response to the investigations findings and not my report. If it turns out I am wrong, there will be no detrimental effect.

I would act rather than do nothing, because if fraud has happened, that place should be offered to someone else and also because the more people know that fraud is reported and if found to have happened, action is taken against it, the more people will think twice about doing it.

However I would not report based on a few random facts which make me wonder if she moved or didn't move...I would need to have a stronger sense that this really had happened in my own mind.

Of course there are reasons it could be legitimate. It's also perfectly possible they've used the address of a rental property they don't live in (and no, in our area, merely owning somewhere is not enough). This happens a lot in our area, where certain properties are now on the Council's red list and will trigger an investigation if an application is submitted from there. School catchments affect house prices b at least £100,000 round here so it is proper fraud. I agree benefit fraud is the best analogy here - and of course it's the children that will be affected by reporting that too - but I am sure you'd see fewer "beak out" type responses.

As for church schools - that is potentially the same, potentially different, depending on what the actual admissions criteria are. Most seem to be drafted in terms of buying a place at the school by turning up at church (near us it has to be pretty regularly). You don't therefore have to lie if you are prepared to go to church. It isn't something I'd be prepared to do but I can't see how it's the same as lying - our local church actively encourages non believers to attend services and events. And as for non-believers getting married in churches - again, not something I was prepared to do but the church and state have been intertwined for centuries - if the church wants to have a say in secular things it needs to accept that its remit is not wholly religious and non-religious people might have an interest in its affairs.

I think you should mind your own business and stop watching other families.

I used to work in Lettings lots of parents will rent somewhere fir 6 months in a house that is in a catchment area for the school they want thier child to go to....it's prevelant so it's not a one off....I would leave it as its really none of your business and surely you have better things o do with your time

maybe if she did commit fraud she took away the place of a very rich child who can afford top fees anyway

You have absolutely no way of knowing the financial circumstances of the children who applied to this school.
You say that her child isn't going to private school because she can't afford the fees - the same could be easily be true of every single child who applied to this primary school for all you know.
And the children living on the fringes of the admissions area, the ones whose parents haven't bought or rented a property close enough to guarantee a place at this highly desirable school, are arguably the ones least likely to be able to afford a private school place (assuming it's desirable enough for parents to be buying property with the aim of securing a school place).

Myrtle it can be classed as fraud if they've used an address simply to get into the catchment area.

They used to do it for DSs school too. There was one house that was always rented out just before admissions time, and magically was up for rent again just a few months later. Which was strange as they've never actually stuck rigidly to the catchment area rules so I always saw it as a bit pointless.

And to all those who say 'mind your own business' and 'walk by on the other side'......if we all do this and don't take any responsibility for what is happening in society and righting wrongs, the world our kids will grow up in, will be far worse than it is now.

There is a big difference from being an interfering busybody who curtain twitches and spitefully reports all kinds of random things based on half-baked evidence and someone who reports something that is harming the community around them, they are pretty sure of, knowing their comments will lead to investigation not un researched judgement.

I also work in a field that touches on enforcement to a certain extent. People are always complaining that it's not a level playing field and people don't play by the rules. This harms some people's businesses and is good for no one. However, when appeals for actual information about actual malpractice, no one will step forward. It's quite frustrating.

and no, in our area, merely owning somewhere is not enough

Nor here. Months of utility bills have to be provided for, along with medical proof of what docs you're under etc etc. The LA is very aware that this sort of thing goes on.

This happens an awful lot in my area. I find it bloody annoying. I think our local authorities now have really strict checks. I can think of 3 people locally who's children missed out due to other parents lying, adding a grandparent address, renting for 6 months etc to get into the 'outstanding' school. In the end the parents who lied were caught out and the children were removed from the school and the local parents got a place. All very stressful. I remember one parent practically in tears over this.

My dc go to a school out of catchment which we applied for and got all fair and above board - but the school we go to is under subscribed. And is far better than the 'outstanding' school.

I have a good knowledge of what goes on into her life despite not being 'friends'.

How? If you don't talk to her? Have you considered a career in MI5?

Some areas are really on the ball with checking, Jon. Usually those where there's been a huge problem. Unfortunately others rely on people reporting suspicions they have.

Which on the basis of this thread probably reduces the number of people caught out.

What a lot of woolly thinking there is on this thread. There is a great antipathy towards the idea that anyone should watch and see what anyone else is doing, that anyone should take a view on what others are doing, that there is any categorical right and wrong and that reporting a wrong is always busybodying and nobodies place.

Absolutely, people shouldn't go round randomly reporting things they have half seen or imagined to the police, SS, benefits fraud etc etc.

However, when people have a pretty clear sense that something wrong has happened, and when the authorities make requests for info about such actitivity. We should be willing to report. The key thing again is to know that a report only triggers the authorities to consider it. Sometimes there won't even be an investigation as there isn't enough info to justify it. n investigation is simply that....people looking into it....and if it turns out there was no fraud, then no action is taken. The authorities accept that there will be reports which in the end show no fraud. And there will be those where fraud is shown and because of that, not the report, the authorities take action. And that place can be offered to another child who met the criteria better. And who can really feel sorry for that person who has committed fraud. Yes their child might be removed, but that is their responsibility for their actions, not those of the reporter......this is again where the woolly thinking comes in.

If we want there to be rules for school places and a clear and transparent system, we have to be willing to work with it.

I get the impression it's someone the op is forced to spend time with - like a sil. And I wouldn't be so sure that people aren't open about this stuff. Some people can be quite blatant. I know a family who have moved into temporary rented accommodation for a school place. I also know that they think this is allowed under the rules because they have genuinely moved and genuinely rented out their own house, but it is in fact a grey area at least. I'm not reporting them because I know they didn't have bad intentions but I've warned them they may not want to keep shouting about it.

I'd report it. I hate it when people think the rules don't apply to them. I was horrified when someone further up the thread openly admitted they'd committed fraud and didn't seem at all bothered. Some people can be so selfish.

Reporting will do no harm if they're innocent. The council will most likely ask for some proof that they're living at the address given. If it's all above board then no harm done, it's not stressful if you are actually living at that address.

People complain about those who cheat the system but so many refuse to do anything about it - "mind your own business".

Ok, having seen your more detailed update, it's clear the child doesn't have SEN and isn't adopted. It doesn't sound like there's an abusive ex either, as the mum wouldn't have gone on about managing to get her DS into the school.

I hadn't realised that you could get a child into a school by being a governor? That might be a reason..

And is there a sibling in the school? You say you've known her for some years. You can get children into out of catchment schools if that's the case. If not, how come you've known her for years when she doesn't live that close to the school? What's the connection?

I understand the gloating might be annoying. It's your call at the end of the day. But if you're not going to report it, then you should let it go, as you're only upsetting yourself.

'Who seriously gives a shit'.....'the system is shit'

Well we live within the system. People fortunately do give a shit. People do act and the fact that people report and fraud is followed up, means the system works better for all.

Sadly, I think that the 'who givea a shit' attitude explains why lots of people stand by when wrong is going on. They have decided that because they personally aren't advantaged by the current system as it stands, there is no point in taking any interest in any of it. Abdication of responsibility is the end of society.

We have a school in our area which was notorious for people renting in the catchment area. In the end the school asked for copies of house deeds or rental agreements. It didn't stop and the catchment area went down to about 100 yards. What made it worse is that many kids would leave for prep school after a couple of years.

The school have now brought in a lottery system of allocating places within a certain catchment and say they will not generally provide references for prep schools, if kid leaves after a couple of years. Schools can themselves clamp down but it needs the will to push through changes.

OP - Please DO report your suspicions. That's the word you use. Best to do this anonymously by letter or email. It is for the council to investigate and you may be doing them a favour in that their procedures need an overhaul. There may in fact be half-a-dozen kids in that school whose parents have diddled the system.

For all you know, someone within education dept may be "selling" places, just as some years ago GP practice managers were selling NHS numbers and signing on non-eligibles to practices at £2k a pop.