To find Justin Trudeau a nauseating poser?

[OhThisbloodyComputer]

I remember seeing a film about the competitive world of american cheerleaders.

One chant went like this: "We're sexy!, We're hot! We're everything you're not!"

I loved that wit, especially the juxtaposition of self promotion and diminishing the opponent.

It's not enough to praise your own merits. To really make yourself stand out, you have to put everyone else down.

There are many examples of what I'd call Juxta-posers in modern life.

They sing their own praises, and try to widen the morality gap further by implying you are some sort of reactionary yokel.

For example, we were talking about a mutual acquaintance at work who happens to be gay. Our office poser at work says: "He's gay. But I haven't got a problem with that."

As if to imply I did!

Strike a Pose! Vogue!

Of course, I was too dim to be able to articulate why this made me angry. It took me ages to spot the subtle way it was insinuated that The Office Poser was good and that I was a troglodyte! I'm more of an 'esprits d'escalier' type. In fact, words often don't come to me until three weeks later, never mind on the staircase.

Which brings me on to Justin Trudeau.

He's the worst Juxta-Poser ever. In the latest example of his Vogueing, he condemns men for, wait for it, 'Bro Culture'. He then goes on to lecture 'men' that they have to follow his example and be great feminists. Like him.

(What he was really saying was "look at me everybody. Just look at me!"). What an utterly cynical, selfish little creep.

What on earth is Bro Culture? If there is something like that, I've never been informed. I'm clearly not on the mailing list of 'The Patriarchy', because I never seem to get any updates on the manly conspiracy to control the world.

What annoys me about Trudeau is that he's demonising other men, just so he can look good by comparison.

I never trust men who declare themselves a feminist. Surely that's an accreditation that has to be earned anyway. You can't just appoint yourself can you? Isn't there an examining board?

Don't get me wrong, I am slowly being educated by feminism and I don't wet the bed about it any more (well not as much anyway) but I can't hack show boating male feminists.

What a ghastly poser this man is. I hope it all ends badly for him.

To quote another chant from those American cheer leaders: "That's alright, that's OK, but you're gonna pump our gas some day."

Am I being unreasonable to not like Trudeau, his straw man arguments and his ghastly moral exhibitionism?

Advice puh-lease!

Actually, I find OP answers quite more interesting than most of the posters. I may not agree with absoluty everything he is saying, but the forced and frankly witless patronising comments I have seen about "take a nap love", "you are jsut jealous you troll", etc. Are far more the mark of trolls than his are. God forbid he does not follow the MN dogma, and have a list of all the accepted and approved terms. Because that completely invalid any relevant point he may have.

Personally, I do not like Trudeau. And holding any judgement on him according to the abyssal benchmark Trump set is not doing politics any justice. Mostly, he is one really hot guy with a fantastic PR team that knows all the triggers that will give him easy popularity on Internet and around the western world.

Oh my, so many typos...

Thanks @Weebo

there is no need for pejorative language like that though. Terms like mature and nincompoop are deeply offensive.

And anyway....

If I want to know something, I'll ask Mr Pratchett, not his Mrs.

Soooooooo, op, just 'I'm alright, Jack'? NIMBY so I don't care? Why on earth would you feel it necessary to start a conversation about a Canadian politician then? In whose back yard this stuff is not only continuing, but you want to take him to task for 'ghastly moral exhibitionism'? I suppose you want to diss his UN talk too? Weirdly, genocide is seen as a bit of a conundrum on the world stage. You do understand the Reserve system? You do realise that there are still Reserves without clean water? That the last residential school only closed in 1996? I'm not sure why you are insistent that this is all ancient history. Even YOU must have been born in 1996. These are CURRENT issues of concern. Idle No More? Grassy Narrows? Epidemics of teenage suicide in First Nation communities? No?
Dude, if I had that shit going on in the country I was the prime minister of, I would also be guilty of ghastly moral exhibitionism, lest, as in the manner you are posting) people assume I don't give a shit.
Meh. Not worth my time.

Funnily enough ancient I'm spending this week facilitating with a group of mostly First Nations people about housing. It's definitely a fine line. I will be facilitating NOT teaching and we have got a group with representatives of the four local First Nations including the daughter of the hereditary Chief. I am incredibly fortunate to have been invited.

The Indian Act. NOT about Indians from India. In case anyone didn't know

thank you @OfaFrenchmind2

Yes, I am new to this.

I'm determined not to insult anyone and I want a less judgemental style of debate.

I hate to say this, but it's very bloke-ish to want to shut down every argument with "that's cause you're dim love" so I was hoping to get higher standards of exchange on here.

thanks for your feedback

and if you want to take it back to sexism - which is where YOU started, denying the bro culture exists - his 'ghastly moral exhibitionism' was also in response to CLEAR examples of sexism and bro culture this very week, from opposition members. Heaven forbid he stand up against his own bloody sex on behalf of one of his cabinet ministers, huh?
I'm not even a fecking liberal. They called me MARGARET THATCHER in college fgs. But to just witter about how badly you are treated as a man when a world leader points out your privilege takes the entitlement biscuit.

tbf does anyone even care about what some rando uk guy thinks about Canada, colonialism, or politics? If there's one thing all of those issues are crying out for, surely it's a hot take written in haste by a dude who hasn't even heard of the Indian Act, and thinks it's hot something to do with tandoori or something

bless you, really OP, go lie down

And yet when I engage in debate you say, "If I want to know something, I'll ask Mr Pratchett, not his Mrs." As far as I can tell you don't like my posts because I object to racist terms, know a little about Canadian politics (which this thread is about) and am a woman.

but I guess when historically you have been over rewarded for total mediocrity then it gets easy to imagine your hot takes are deep and incisive

@theancientmarinader

I mentioned before, but probably I rambled on too long and bored you, but my objection to Trudeau is not that he's a canadian,. but he's an opportunistic man, chucking fellow men under a bus in order to play to the gallery.

That's the one point I made.

He's a poser.

I said nothing about Canada as a whole. (A fine country, but I'm not qualified to talk about it)
Nor the Inuits.
Nor whether men should be feminists.

One simple point. Which is this. He's a massive poser, pretending to be feminist (not actually being one) by pandering to stereotypes about men.

Now, if he can throw fellow men under a bus, when it's convenient, how do you think he'll feel about other less powerful groups when political expediency dictates?

For goodness sake AncientMarinader, I thought you could follow orders!

@Madge

See above.

I never said I objected to feminism - just to Trudeau's opportunism

I never claimed to know anything about Canadian politics - but I can spot a man who is devious and weaselly

I never denied that, say, men have had things generally easier than women (terms and conditions apply to each case of course) because that is a massively complex subject. I did say I thought Trudeau is a phoney who runs in the front of the parade and pretends to be leading it.

Er, how many more times can I say this? I made one point. He's a narcissistic poser.

I think many men can spot this.

I was hoping to find out what you think.

(Please, no lectures on Canada, Colonialism, Inuits, Male Feminists, Locker rooms, the royal family. Not that I'm not interested, but my original question was about Trudeau and is he a shallow poser. And nothing else)

thanks

A final point. Your entire argument centres on 'it wasn't me' (I'm not a sexist. I'm not a racism. I'm not a colonizer.) well, hello. Neither is Justin Trudeau. And the speech you took exception to, was the one where he explicitly stated that it is not good enough not to be a sexist. It is not good enough. The bro culture exists and MEN (good men, you know, like the sort you are claiming to be) HAVE to stand up to bro culture and call it out in their friends, their relatives, in the pub (presumably with your non-existent 'Indian' mates), in the street, everywhere. It is not good enough to not just not be sexist. You have to call it out. Same for every other 'ism' you want to get in to. By not doing so, you are guilty of collusion.

Denying it exists at all? Bro, that's what pissed me off.

I don't mind a sensible discussion. But when your argument centres on 'it wasn't me', when that's what JT was calling out in the first place? Meh. You lose the moral high ground and display your guilt.

Be honest OP - You hate him 'cause he hawt.

Thank you @Weebo

You're right. You have clean bowled me and the umpire is telling me to leave the wicket and walk back to the pavilion.

Ohhh, but do you think he's really happy? I bet he's shallow.

I bet he's the sort to - well, I don't want to be snidey but .....

You are most welcome.

@theancientmarinader

You are a wonderful speaker, but i wish you'd stop telling me what my argument was.

(I don't know whether you are a womansplainer or a mansplainer)

I never claimed to be wonderful. I never claimed sexism doesn't exist. I never claimed that nobody says bad things in locker rooms. (I haven't surveyed the world's locker rooms)

I do think he's a posturing buffoon who says whatever is popular. That is my one simple point.

I genuinely have never heard the phrase Bro Culture. I don't recognise it as a thing. I wonder if he even believes in it himself.

Here's my simple point: he's just playing to the gallery. Running in front of the parade and pretending to be leader.

(Although, as the magnificent @weebo points out, I'm probably just jealous)

I prefer spectacular.

Yeah he is a bit of a poser, constantly setting up 'spontaneous' photo opportunities that make him look cool/fun, a bit like Tony Blair and his Paul Smith shirts and his electric guitar in the 1990s. A lot of people just like him because he's young and pretty (for a politician anyway). But at the moment he's the best we've got especially in comparison to Trump. It's not pretentious for a man to call himself a feminist, it just means he believes in equal rights for men and women. And surely by that definition we should all be feminists.

It's a funny thing, this feigning innocence. Straight white dude claims not to understand 'bro culture' concept, despite being given examples (including contextual references such as the treatment of Catherine McKenna, pertinent to JT speech that op objects to).
If you don't have the imagination nor life experience to even begin to formulate any idea what 'bro culture' might be, you are genuinely beyond any help any of us can offer. Perhaps removing your male privilege lens might help with that complete vision problem you have.

And then maybe revisit the concept of ghastly moral exhibitionism in context. You might find you have a different view. Any finer points made will of course be totally lost. Without recognizing the problem, you cannot possibly begin to understand the need for a solution.

Heaven forbid that other white men in positions of power have that vision. And heaven forbid they may be hawt.

It's not a point of pride to be intellectually incapable of understanding another person's point of view, just in case you thought it was. You don't have to agree. You just have to grasp that other opinions are available. Free of charge. it's a bit like that childhood developmental stage when the baby realizes he is a separate entity to the the mother, and then about 7/8 when empathy is supposed to kick in. You might not have felt the kick on the shin yourself, but you understand it hurt someone else.

To deny bro culture? To deny that kick on a woman's shin exists, even if you swear blind you didn't administer it yourself? Nice to be you.

for those just joining:

man bloviates about how Justin Trudeau is a poser- he is unable to articulate why exactly despite gassing on in multiple posts

man seems enchanted by his own ignorance of the political landscape in which JT came to power, and exists

and despite having nothing to add beyond JT making him feel funny, man continues to post as though this in itself is a topic for debate

Oh dear @theancientmarinader

I'm not feigning ignorance. I didn't look up Catherine McKenna. Is she the one who was constantly compared to a Barbie? (if so, why is that extrapolated to mean into 'Bro Culture')

Why, if I'm talking about Trudeau, have I got to take responsibility for Catherine McKenna?

Simple point. He's a poser. I doubt very much whether he was speaking up for her. You will argue he was.

It saddens me that throughout your answer you are making these demeaning comments: ""if you don't have the imagination nor life experience" etc.

The things is, they become less impactful the more you make them. "Any finer points will of course be totally lost" etc

Oooh! Get you! That really hurt.

Come on please.

You were in the Military so I'm sure you were made of tougher stuff than this in the Canadian Army/Navy/Air Force

I've never insulted you or made insinuations about you.

Why does everything have to be seen in the context of "white men" and "male privilege" and "white men in positions of power" ?

Those are just catch phrases people fall back on when they've run out of arguments.

I'm not here to comment on Canada's politics.

I just happen to see through Trudeau's posturing.

Simple point I though. (I don't know the wider aspects of Canadian politics, but I can spot a poser on a YouTube video.)

This probably pre-dates you, but in the 70s they had Miss World contests, where all the finalists would talk about how they wanted to bring peace to the world.

Trudeau is a Mister World contestant. That lady on the stage is practically saying to him "You're a pretty one., but I understand there's brains as well as beauty. Tell us a little about yourself love."

Trudeau. "I want to bring peace to the world. I love children. {AUDIENCE GOES AAHHH}

All the contestants say that. is there anything else Justin? Look at the camera love

"And I want to end Bro Culture and urge all men to be feminists."

COMPERE: Well done you, Justin! Well done you! Come on ladies of the audience, I think little Justin deserves a round of applause!

I don't think you understand what a discussion is

it isn't a person monologuing in a naive way about trivialities and demanding that other, more knowledgable posters humour their guff

Those are just catch phrases people fall back on when they've run out of arguments

• a guy whose entire argument is that 'Justin makes me feel funny'

@MadgeMidgerson

Oh please, don't MadgeSplain to me!

I think we've come to a logical end, as I was making a simple point and hoping to hear your opinion.

All I'm getting now is personal comments, but I had high hopes for some enlightenment.

Lets imagine that, worse case scenario, it turns out I don't know as much about Canada as you. You could always just explain stuff to me, without taking my lack of knowledge personally.

I'm not challenging your authority or thinking I can 'win' an argument.

Nobody wins a discussion.

I don't think I will ever change your mind about Justin Trudeau, that's why I've been posing questions. I'd like to think you are not threatened by the fact that I don't trust him.

I never demanded you humour my guff.