about those on the autistic spectrum in mainstream schools?

[OverbearingHouseSitter]

Basically I've read so many threads recently about those on the autistic spectrum being completely let down by teachers and senior staff in schools.

I mean punishing those on the autistic spectrum in incidents when it is entirely inappropriate, and the lack of understanding of some teachers that you cannot use the same behaviour strategies on some children who require a different approach due to SEN.

And then there are times when punishment should not be given at all, such as when a child who is on the autistic spectrum behaving in a way that the teacher doesn't like, yet the teacher not seeming to realise that this behaviour is part of their SEN!

My mother was a teacher and I realise how hard being a teacher is. She got signed off sick with stress... it's a bloody hard job. But AIBU to think that some teachers and school staff- NOT all- seem to be consistently failing those on the autistic spectrum and those with other SEN, whatever these may be?

This is not just from this forum either! There have been instances from people I know I've heard about and with friends kids.

For example, a friends child was recently punished as he did not understand something the teacher said, ie, it was some form of light sarcasm the teacher used, friends DS with SEN did not register this, did what the teacher told the pupils sarcastically not to do and was then mortified and confused when the teacher punished him.

So AIBU?

I also apologise if I have used an language around people with special needs that you do not like/prefer not to use. My friend prefers the term "on the autistic spectrum" opposed to "autistic child" but if I have said anything wrong please tell me!

You cannot manage teaching, in the current climate, then.

You know, it's pretty lucky that I am secure in my teaching career because if I were a less secure, newer, less experienced teacher, that sort of comment could push me over the edge into being yet another teacher quitting the profession.

It is not the fault of the teacher if they cannot manage a very difficult mix of students or even an individual student without adequate resources, training, or support.

It is not the fault of the teacher if they struggle with something that is difficult.

Obviously what can be expected is that the teacher will try to support the student/class as best they can, will implement strategies where advised, and will seek advice and support.

But sometimes the job is too big for one teacher, sometimes things go wrong, sometimes teachers do things wrong, because they lack knowledge (of the kid, of the SEN, of what happened just before the lesson), because they're human and sometimes some children miss out while other children are being supported.

It's funny how I said upthread that my DS was on a waiting list for an ASD assessment and no one batted an eyelid. Surely someone should have said 'why did you say ASD assessment when you should have said 'an assessment by an experienced paediatrician to diagnose something of which you will be totally surprised by, because until that assessment, you have no clue what's wrong'?

When it's a parent it's allowed, apparently.

Did I say it was your fault, noble?

No my point is, teaching includes teaching those with SENs. This should be taken as a given. It should not be part of a teachers consciousness to think it is possible to teach without teaching children with SENs. Saying I cannot manage SENs is like saying I cannot communicate in front of a class. Both are pretty necessary.

Because teachers teach children and many children will, statistically, be outside of the norm. Because children are human.

Noble, I'm with you entirely on this thread!

ASD assessments exist. They are to determine whether a child has ASD. A paediatrician needs to assess for particular conditions, otherwise there is no answer as to whether a child has the condition or not. This is vastly different from unqualified people saying an undiagnosed person is 'obviously autistic'.

It's absolutely hilarious that on the one hand teachers are expected to be experts in absolutely every form and presentation of SEN, including immediately knowing how best to teach each and every student in a class where many have SEN whose needs may clash.

And yet we are also expected to pretend to be completely clueless about SEN and just refer everyone and anyone for any old type of assessment to see what the paediatrician says.

I'm very grateful that my DS's teachers did not play dumb from reception and instead suggested a possible explanation which has become more obvious as time has gone on. A diagnosis doesn't give a student autism, it merely confirms it where it exists.

I'm very grateful that my DS's teachers did not play dumb from reception and instead suggested a possible explanation which has become more obvious as time has gone on.

Well, maybe you've not been on the receiving end of people having a stereotypical view of your child, fabricating, out of their prejudices, needs your child simply did not have and failing to read freely available professional reports and parents' clear, evidenced, written information and feedback.

I can tell you that's not 'hilarious'.

In my experience I didn't expect teachers to be experts at all.
What I hoped for was that they wouldn't categorically dismiss my son's diagnosis because they didn't have the experience to spot it, and instead of using the experiences of outreach support and parental knowledge, they ignored this too.
In my limited experience, we faced arrogant teachers who knew best at every turn, which resulted in ds, over several years, being unable to accept any support because every single time he had, it resulted in humiliation.

I'm in no way saying that every teacher would act in this way, but apparently we (and many other parents) have been unfortunate enough to find teachers whose attitudes to SEN are lacking, which results in harder times for our children than is necessary.

.A diagnosis doesn't give a student autism, it merely confirms it where it exists.

'Pop' diagnosis erodes the meaning of professional diagnosis because the same parameters are not observed and adhered to. Because language is fluid, this means evolution in the usage of a word can change what it actually is understood by that word. This is why terms need to be protected. Especially when they are the terms of a recognised disability. Not to protect diagnostic terms invites stereotypes and prejudice.

just refer everyone and anyone for any old type of assessment to see what the paediatrician says.

IME teachers do not refer. GPs can. The LA can also initiate, upon request from parents or teachers, particular assessments and specific referrals might go from there.

Sirzy I was just reporting what they said to me.

And yet we are also expected to pretend to be completely clueless about SEN and just refer everyone and anyone for any old type of assessment to see what the paediatrician says.

Teachers do not refer to a Paeditrician. A GP does.

pondering re the sympathy/disabilism, I was referring to normal, decent people and how they would respond. Should have perhaps included a disclaimer about the usual bashing by idiots.

And I think it's hugely offensive to the majority of teachers, who are doing their best, to describe them as not being up to the job of teaching if they can't manage everything. The system isn't up to it, that's the problem.

And regarding misappropriation of funds, that can also be done with good intentions. What happens when a dc starts a school with no dx, ehcp, funding etc? Even if all they do short term is provide enough support to keep the child physically safe, that support has to be funded from somewhere. And most teachers want to do more than just keep a child safe. That could be funded from pp budget that should be supporting deprived dc, a class ta who should be supporting everyone, or part of another child's funding. Or more likely a combination of above. None of which is right, but I can see why a good school might not have any choice.

Yy to what alex said. Dds school was always in the shit for teaching dc for their personal benefit, rather than for ofsted/ league tables. No official body recognised all the good they did, just the fact that they didn't have a nice herd of automatons churning out l4 sats in y6.

Well, maybe you've not been on the receiving end of people having a stereotypical view of your child, fabricating, out of their prejudices, needs your child simply did not have and failing to read freely available professional reports and parents' clear, evidenced, written information and feedback.

Us too pondering.

My ds was diagnosed, with pinpoint accuracy, at the age of two in a two hour appointment. Private but with an experienced consultant who has a mainly NHS practice.
When we went back into the NHS local paed told us "well normally it would be a lengthy process but as Dr X has diagnosed we won't argue with her." No lady, you'd better not. This lengthy process thing may be justified in some circs but is too often a get out for "professionals" who don't want to commit themselves or deal with consequences of diagnosis.

And I think it's hugely offensive to the majority of teachers, who are doing their best, to describe them as not being up to the job of teaching if they can't manage everything. The system isn't up to it, that's the problem.

Is it? I thought I was just stating facts. Managing SENs should not be treated as optional within teaching. It is ok to say they you have difficulty managing but not to treat managing SENs as an optional part of the job. I cannot think of another necessary part of teaching that is singled out, as if it is optional, in quite the same way.

Even if all they do short term is provide enough support to keep the child physically safe, that support has to be funded from somewhere. And most teachers want to do more than just keep a child safe. That could be funded from pp budget that should be supporting deprived dc, a class ta who should be supporting everyone, or part of another child's funding. Or more likely a combination of above.

This just creates more problems, if it is not detailed in the paperwork. Needs end up being distorted, this way. It means there is less incentive to bother to apply through the proper channels for a child who needs individualised funding. If funding is taken elsewhere it needs to be officially noted. The process needs to be transparent in order for a true picture of needs to be appreciated.

My ds was diagnosed, with pinpoint accuracy, at the age of two in a two hour appointment. Private but with an experienced consultant who has a mainly NHS practice.

Would you feel the same about an unqualified person making a 'diagnosis'?

This is what I was objecting to. Diagnosis has to conform to rigorous perimeters to retain validity. Usually this is a lengthy process because there is a belief amongst some professionals in the field certain developmental stages can complicate accurate diagnosis, which is why I said it. This does not mean quick 'pop' diagnosis suddenly becomes valid.

pondering re the sympathy/disabilism, I was referring to normal, decent people and how they would respond. Should have perhaps included a disclaimer about the usual bashing by idiots.

Yes, because if you feel criticised by people, who are clearly not idiots, those who use reasoned arguments, it is a bit more difficult to dismiss. Perhaps parents need to be listened to more, so we don't have to shout?

pondering teachers who consider it optional are indeed not up to the job. But most who struggle don't fall into that category, and it is counter productive to assume that they simply aren't up to the job, when everyone needs to be on the same page to change the current system. Instead of berating teachers who can't provide the impossible.

Although the consequences aren't comparable, Sen isn't the only area that is considered optional by some. The most able are also optional, there isn't even a policy to back up a demand that your child needs more than the age appropriate curriculum. It really does come down to whether the teacher/ school choose to meet their needs.

Again because we currently have a system that is aimed at the majority, with nothing much in place for those who have different needs. Whether that's sn, g&t, chaotic home lives, mh, trauma, bad behaviour or anything else that results in a child having different needs to the majority. Nothing except the schools and teachers who try despite the system to meet the needs outside the norm, so to then slam them for not doing it well enough is harsh to say the least.

Yes the system needs to be more transparent and quicker. But realistically, even if you got it down to a few weeks for a dx & funding and the school do everything by the book, that child still needs the support for those few weeks before they are legally entitled to it. And at present that's going to be from resources that will be taken from someone/ somewhere else.

But most who struggle don't fall into that category, and it is counter productive to assume that they simply aren't up to the job, when everyone needs to be on the same page to change the current system. Instead of berating teachers who can't provide the impossible.

My posts are not intended to 'berate' the conscientious. They are intended to tackle the significantly widespread perception that teaching children with SENs is/should be optional within teaching.

Again because we currently have a system that is aimed at the majority, with nothing much in place for those who have different needs. Whether that's sn, g&t, chaotic home lives, mh, trauma, bad behaviour or anything else that results in a child having different needs to the majority. Nothing except the schools and teachers who try despite the system to meet the needs outside the norm, so to then slam them for not doing it well enough is harsh to say the least.

So criticising this system and people who support it and collude with it is necessary in order for changes to be made. This criticism should not be construed as 'slamming' those who try their best in difficult circumstances. But talking about instances where teachers are obstructive and how is necessary because this is part of the broken system. I'm sure, too, that often, that obstructiveness, is unintentional and born out of ignorance. This is why I point out the circumstances where it occurs. This is not teacher bashing, it is outlining specific problems which need to be tackled, so they can be.

If I communicate my lived experiences, it is not teacher bashing. Yes, teachers were clearly at fault but these mistakes occurred in real life. I communicate them so others can recognise what happens and seek to avoid the same injustices being repeated.

And at present that's going to be from resources that will be taken from someone/ somewhere else.

As, I said, fine, if this is recorded in the ECHP review and provision map paperwork and the impact noted.

I'm not disputing your experiences, or anyone else's where teachers/ slt aren't even trying. And I've posted examples of my own.

I just disagree that from those experiences you can extrapolate to say that blase, noble or any other teacher on the thread who has admitted to not always managing everything ideally is also lacking. Or that they are colluding in a system that doesn't suit every child.

Honestly pondering what is your solution to how a teacher manages child a who is noisy & chaotic, and child b who needs quiet & order? With no option to remove either from the room, and nobody else to help?

I just disagree that from those experiences you can extrapolate to say that blase, noble or any other teacher on the thread who has admitted to not always managing everything ideally is also lacking. Or that they are colluding in a system that doesn't suit every child.

I don't remember saying that.

Honestly pondering what is your solution to how a teacher manages child a who is noisy & chaotic, and child b who needs quiet & order? With no option to remove either from the room, and nobody else to help?

You do your best. You talk about self management/ organisational techniques for concentrating with the children. You give specific rewards for progress. You utilise equipment such as ear defenders and jotting pads and methods for structuring work. In the end both should become more resilient to the learning environment.

I talked about teachers IME being 'lacking' and 'colluding'. I talked about tackling SENs as non optional. I responded to noble when said she couldn't do this part of the job (I fully expect she has considerable skills in the area) with a post that pointed out she was admitting to not being able to teach since tackling SENs is a non negotiable part of teaching.