about those on the autistic spectrum in mainstream schools?

[OverbearingHouseSitter]

Basically I've read so many threads recently about those on the autistic spectrum being completely let down by teachers and senior staff in schools.

I mean punishing those on the autistic spectrum in incidents when it is entirely inappropriate, and the lack of understanding of some teachers that you cannot use the same behaviour strategies on some children who require a different approach due to SEN.

And then there are times when punishment should not be given at all, such as when a child who is on the autistic spectrum behaving in a way that the teacher doesn't like, yet the teacher not seeming to realise that this behaviour is part of their SEN!

My mother was a teacher and I realise how hard being a teacher is. She got signed off sick with stress... it's a bloody hard job. But AIBU to think that some teachers and school staff- NOT all- seem to be consistently failing those on the autistic spectrum and those with other SEN, whatever these may be?

This is not just from this forum either! There have been instances from people I know I've heard about and with friends kids.

For example, a friends child was recently punished as he did not understand something the teacher said, ie, it was some form of light sarcasm the teacher used, friends DS with SEN did not register this, did what the teacher told the pupils sarcastically not to do and was then mortified and confused when the teacher punished him.

So AIBU?

I also apologise if I have used an language around people with special needs that you do not like/prefer not to use. My friend prefers the term "on the autistic spectrum" opposed to "autistic child" but if I have said anything wrong please tell me!

meh

Sums it up, doesn't it. This is the amount of compassion those with SENs receive.

I appreciate the teachers who work with me and DS to help him (thankfully the vast majority in his school do)

I don’t appreciate the teachers who make no effort to take simple steps to make life easier for him and then tell him off when he responds the only way he knows how

no I mehed at being called an arselicker actually.

to all the teachers on this thread thank you for all your hard work in an increasingly impossible environment. please step away from this thread now for your own sanity

If you'd have lost your sanity over a Mumsnet thread you wouldn't have lasted five minutes in DSs previous school.
No one is teacher bashing, the complete overreaction to my post wrongly insinuating I called you all useless shitbags is testament to that. Ironically just before I praised a TA of his

Teachers are not infallible. I had one Teacher in a multi-agency meeting interject a Paeditrician and tell them 'that doesn't mean DS has autism'. On the other hand, DS once had a teacher who was worth their weight in gold. I was more gutted than DS when they moved with their husbands work!

Jon your school sounds great.

Unfortunately mine doesn't have the budget to stock overlays. One per pupil is allocated in Sept and that's it.

So now we get to teachers having to shell out or they get it in the neck.

I can see you aren't unreasonable and your DD sounds fabulous. Not all schools can afford to be like that though.

no I mehed at being called an arselicker actually.

Post more thoughtful constructive comments then. Rather than ones which can so very easily be dismissed as arselickery.

meh. someone needs to appreciate them before they all quit!

Pity the parents cant be afforded the same level of respect isn't it. I have always treated teachers with respect. It hasn't always been reciprocated.

I will post what I like thanks.

Unfortunately mine doesn't have the budget to stock overlays. One per pupil is allocated in Sept and that's it.

Is that because your school is small or big? I'm asking out of general curiosity, because I always hear the budget thing. DDs school is huge. It's the only secondary school for miles so caters for a a huge demographic of students. DSs is very small - one form entry. Both manage quite well. DSs previous primary was also huge and woefully inadequate at SNs provisions. But that was mainly down to their attitudes and approach to them rather than the funding.

I home educate as there was very little understanding at school for my son. He's nearly ten (been out two years). I fantasise about a school that will understand him and his anxiety which leads to demand avoidant.
He's a sweet quiet little boy but cannot cope with academic demands (being one) so learning at his own pace at small home ed groups works and one to one with me lessens his distress , hoping he'll cope with more as he gets older but the more I hear about schools from other parents the less I believe I'll find one that gets him and will allow him to have some control over how much he can take in and do.

Sadly, it's not just schools. I have a friend who was not diagnosed with autism until late adulthood. Friend's GP is aware of diagnosis and notes are on file.
Friend recently went to GP feeling unwell, and GP was initially dismissive "it's because you're autistic, you over-analyse every little thing.", then proceeded to get friend to sit in noisy corner of waiting room ( friend had a split appointment). When friend went back to see same GP, they were shown a scrolling computer screen which listed (text & numbers) all their medication, past & present.
Friend had a sensory crash/meltdown.

Of course there are teachers and schools that don't try and do shockingly bad jobs. My catchment secondary has managed out dc who go on to thrive at other secondaries that already have a greater number of children with difficult needs.

I know they misappropriate Sen funding. One parent I know was told that her dds allocated funding for ft 1-1 didn't exist and she was being inconsiderate to expect it because the 1-1 had to be shared with other classes. Something they got away with because this parent isn't equipped to know/fight the system. Funnily enough when I went in with her to discuss it the ht backtracked sharpish. Sweet f.a. was done when I reported it. And if a ht can do it to a child with needs complex enough that the parent got 1-1 without a battle, God knows how many less complex kids aren't getting their needs met.

And no arguments that not all schools manage it as brilliantly as dd's primary did.

But I think most that don't manage well are situations that the teachers on the thread have mentioned, where it is simply not possible to balance the needs of all the dc in that cohort.

I do agree with balfe though. If a parent posts about how they are struggling with their child, everyone is sympathetic. But a teacher admitting the same, when they have not just that child, but another 29 which contains other dc with additional needs is scoffed at and told it's easy.

Even the hall scenario, with the older kid stalling isn't straightforward. Dd's friend couldn't have waited at 8yrs old for a child with asd, without exploding herself, and could only do it now as a teen for a few minutes. It's easy to say just take dd's friend in first, but sitting through assembly was a challenge for her anyway, adding 5 minutes before it starts to let her get wound up would be disastrous. And maybe the other child who stalls wouldn't cope if you took them 5 minutes early, and they didn't stall that day. Yes you can work that situation out on a daily basis, but it's still a fine balancing act and requires time staff might not have if they are dealing with a third, fourth, eighth child who at that moment has more pressing needs. Sooner or later however they do it something will happen that isn't ideal for one of them. And getting the class into assembly is far from the most difficult task teachers have.

Budget Cuts' and TA redundancy do not extend to the dc with additional SEN funding.

There seems to be an assumption on this thread that SEN = EHCP = additional funding + TA. I teach loads of kids with SEN at the moment who need time and support, some who can be very challenging and none of them have an EHCP and I don't have support. I've taught kids who needed one but primary supported them so well (I assume) no one bothered applying even though they can barely count, with the application taking a very long time. I've taught kids who are very obviously autistic or have some other form of SEN who don't have a diagnosis or IEP. I've taught kids who have masked for years but reached crisis point and then still had to teach them through the crash and diagnostic process. And at the same time I've taught kids who are suffering from recent trauma, who are disaffected, who are abusive, who are simply badly behaved. I've taught many kids with SEN who would be perfectly capable of carrying an overlay around (even statemented students) and many who would benefit from one but don't want to use it because they think it's embarrassing. I've taught kids with SEN who are also badly behaved ("miss I'm going to destroy your lesson today"). It really isn't as straightforward as 'kid with statement turns up to school with statement, diagnosis, list of helpful details on how to support, battle-hardened, supportive parents who know the system, a TA and when everything is done just so, it's all great'. It's way more complicated and messy than that.

Teachers don't go into the classroom saying 'today I'm going to do a shit job'. The poster upthread who said if you aren't capable of dealing with 30 different needs, you're in the wrong job has really pissed me off.

And yes, I was actually hoping for practical solutions upthread. Like I said, teachers don't go in planning to do a shit job. Honestly it's quite telling that no one has posted any but the moaning about teachers has continued. Even if you thought I was taking the piss or whatever, how hard would it have been to make a quick post that could have helped other teachers reading? As Balfe said it's a common scenario.

Glad you posed that, noblegiraffe. I was struggling to describe something like that myself.

If a parent posts about how they are struggling with their child, everyone is sympathetic.

This is simply not true. Yes, people with experience, tend to be sympathetic. However look in site stuff and see endless complaints, with thread references, about disablism.

Why do you think there was a need for the 'This is my child' campaign?

Teachers generally find allies on the Staffroom board. People with children who have additional needs on the SEN boards. Incidentally many on the SEN boards have talked about not posting in Education, any longer, because of the hostile responses they get.

The thing is, the problems in education are not down to children with SEN. Children have SENs because they are human. It stands to reason, statistically, not everybody will be NT. Education has to cater for everyone.

Problems are not entirely down to funding, either. I say this because of significantly widespread misappropriation of individual funding. This is about attitudes. What happens when resources are tight. Who takes the hit? Who suffers? Too often the answer is those that are vulnerable.

So we get teachers saying they cannot manage SENs - not that they cannot manage teaching. To my mind teaching automatically includes tackling SENs because statistically many children have SENs, at some stage. It is wrong to think it is possible for tackling SENs not to be part of the job.

So we get teachers saying they cannot manage SENs - not that they cannot manage teaching.

I can manage teaching, I've been doing it for years. Over those years I've also successfully taught many students with SEND. That doesn't automatically mean that I can successfully teach any student with any SEND because there are many I haven't come across and even students with the same diagnosis can be very different, nor can I successfully teach a large class of students with many students with SEND, with no support.

taught kids who are very obviously autistic or have some other form of SEN who don't have a diagnosis or IEP.

Whilst undiagnosed SENs obviously exist, I dispute the 'pop' diagnosis of 'obviously autistic' happening here. Valid professional diagnosis is, necessarily, a lengthy and rigorous process. People using diagnostic terms, to describe undiagnosed individuals erodes the validity of professional diagnoses. This contributes towards disablism and autism not being fully recognised as a disability.

I can manage teaching, I've been doing it for years. Over those years I've also successfully taught many students with SEND. That doesn't automatically mean that I can successfully teach any student with any SEND because there are many I haven't come across and even students with the same diagnosis can be very different, nor can I successfully teach a large class of students with many students with SEND, with no support.

You cannot manage teaching, in the current climate, then.

dispute the 'pop' diagnosis of 'obviously autistic' happening here.

thanks for that being the one bit to be picked up on from my post. So many parents battling for a diagnosis to confirm what they already know, but teachers are supposed to pretend to be clueless about such things? I'm not making a diagnosis, it's my opinion on a talk board.

Valid professional diagnosis is, necessarily, a lengthy and rigorous process.

I'm not trying to undermine the rest of what you've said OP, but you can actually get a diagnosis start to finish in 2hrs privately from a top top consultant who is also high up in the NHS. So no, it doesn't need to be lengthy, that's just a reflection of how shit the NHS is (according to said consultant).

Just don't do it noble. The erosion of the meaning and validity of professional diagnoses has far too serious consequences.

What would you describe as 'obvious autistic'?

I once had a parent say to me 'not being funny, your DS is a lot more obvious to me, I don't understand why you don't get support'. She'd just been telling me how she was frustrated that the Paed had diagnosed her DS within 5 minutes as he's 'normal to her', whilst DS was stimming and bolting around the playground. Five years before DS was diagnosed. Despite how 'obvious' he was to casual observers.

An autism diagnosis in 2 hours

I would be very sceptical about that unless their had been a lot of background work and multiagency reports done first.

Of course a parent has some responsibility for their child's education. Parental input is invaluable. What I am saying is that you aren't hauled into a data meeting and made to feel like a crap teacher because a child hasn't hit some completely unrealistic target. The goal posts don't change when a child has SEN. They are expected to make progress at the same rate as their peers. There personal targets that they may hit count for nothing. For example I was absolutely over the moon that a child who point blank refused to speak in whole class situations one day got up with a friend a receited a short rhyme. This was massive for him and huge progress... However, there was nothing to measure this on. He continued to develop confidence and by the end of the year would work at his table and would join in whole class activities. He's gone from hiding under tables and running out of class. None of that mattered. Data said he did not achieve expected progress. How demoralising for the child and parents to come so far and it not be good enough.

I also once got taken into a feedback meeting after a lesson observation and was told that I had failed a child who had not made progress in the lesson. He had produced no work. He had a seizure and zoned out. I followed the advice of his epilepsy nurse to the letter but none of this counted because the books showed he'd done no work and I couldn't prove it was a seizure.
What was I supposed to do....