about those on the autistic spectrum in mainstream schools?

[OverbearingHouseSitter]

Basically I've read so many threads recently about those on the autistic spectrum being completely let down by teachers and senior staff in schools.

I mean punishing those on the autistic spectrum in incidents when it is entirely inappropriate, and the lack of understanding of some teachers that you cannot use the same behaviour strategies on some children who require a different approach due to SEN.

And then there are times when punishment should not be given at all, such as when a child who is on the autistic spectrum behaving in a way that the teacher doesn't like, yet the teacher not seeming to realise that this behaviour is part of their SEN!

My mother was a teacher and I realise how hard being a teacher is. She got signed off sick with stress... it's a bloody hard job. But AIBU to think that some teachers and school staff- NOT all- seem to be consistently failing those on the autistic spectrum and those with other SEN, whatever these may be?

This is not just from this forum either! There have been instances from people I know I've heard about and with friends kids.

For example, a friends child was recently punished as he did not understand something the teacher said, ie, it was some form of light sarcasm the teacher used, friends DS with SEN did not register this, did what the teacher told the pupils sarcastically not to do and was then mortified and confused when the teacher punished him.

So AIBU?

I also apologise if I have used an language around people with special needs that you do not like/prefer not to use. My friend prefers the term "on the autistic spectrum" opposed to "autistic child" but if I have said anything wrong please tell me!

I'm imagining you as a Saxondale, type character, MusicMan. One who did the odd, baffling, 'music workshop', in the 1980s. And I'm being far too complimentary...

I think some SEN do better in mainstream schools and some do better in specialist schools, it depends on the individual child and the complexion of needs.

A friend's SEN son chose to stay in mainstream schooling, despite his difficulties, he felt he could cope. Whereas I recently met a lovely mum who commutes 1.5 hrs across London with her daughter every day to take her to a special school near me and says it has changed her DD's life.

DSs school is very small (village school - one form entry) . There are five children in his class with ASD & ADHD. All have different requirements and need different behaviour management strategies. 2 with very significant needs who often need those breaks.

The school manage this very well and parents would still step over one another to get their child a place there.

It's only difficult when reluctant schools make it so.

I think the key is that it's a small school JonSnow when you have mainstream schools with 1000+ pupils it's a lot harder.

Musicman, I personally would not have cared if my son was in mainstream education, or if he was in a school for those with special needs. All I cared about was that he was somewhere where they cared about him and he received the help he needed. Unfortunately that didn't ever happen. What did happen is that both he and I ended up extremely depressed (have you ever walked to school to pick up your child shaking with fear at what the teacher will say today? I have, and I can tell you that it's soul destroying), which affected the whole family for more years than I dare to think about. In fact he is 25 now and only in the last year or two have things been good for us. It must be very hard being a teacher. I really mean that. But bloody hell, I can tell you that it's shockingly hard being the parent of a child that has been completely failed by the system, but where everyone thinks that you as the parent can fix that. The loneliness and despair is unimaginable.

Depends, Riding. My DC has thrived at their large Secondary. With no additional support. They were diagnosed with some additional needs/developmental delays (although not autism) & social communication needs, early on in Primary and received significant funding which later ceased. The way a school is organised can make a big difference too.

As I said above it depends on the individual child and complexion of needs, and of course it also depends on the school.

I have a child with severe learning difficulties. I don't want compassion from his educators. I want them to understand him and support him to develop as far as he can.

Your post scares me!

I haven't read the replies yet so I'm place marking. My DD is 2.8 and currently being assessed for autism. I've already decided she's not starting school without a diagnosis and support in place but I'm apprehensive about the whole idea anyway.

I posted much earlier in this thread but wanted to expand a bit because my last post may have seemed anti teacher. I am not anti teacher at all, I take my hat off to teachers who are coping with increasing problems and pressure with cuts to their staffing and budgets. At the same time they are being asked to include a variety of children with a variety of special educational needs.

Now you can put children with SEN in mainstream schools but please don't insult my intelligence by assuming that this is all it takes to achieve inclusion....it doesn't.

It's so far from "inclusion" it's unreal. What you have largely is integration....a totally different thing.

So the mainstream schools will take our children with autism, they will make some effort to meet their needs but they will still assume that the child can obey blindly all rules and regulations without realising that some of those rules cause problems. So you have Great Yarmouth Academy in the news with their tight rules who have already excluded an autistic child for "not making eye contact and tracking the teacher". Oh the child is welcome in their school certainly but only if his SEN doesn't affect their rules. If it does then....bye bye.

There was a thread posted yesterday where a school have so mismanaged an autistic Y7 pupil that he is now in a state of anxiety and school refusing.

All in all I am glad my son is at a special school where they DO make an effort to address his needs and ensure he gets support.

Too many school can't do this and some plain won't bother.

I will say that my son's mainstream primary school was an amazing place where he was well supported. It seems many problems start once they hit Y7 and can't cope.

It would be better if all forms of special needs could be catered for in specialist units and small classes with expert teachers, if much more expensive. It would enable teachers to teach whole classes without trying to deliver nine levels of differentiation in each lesson. If there were effective sanctions to exclude unruly and disruptive elements, all kids would enjoy better chances of learning something useful.

Oh look, the porcine aerobatics team are staging a fly past.

It's not about mainstream v SS but about which setting can provide what is needed for the individual child to thrive.

At the moment DS goes to a mainstream school which for him and with the support he gets at the moment is working well. As he gets older (year 3) I can see more problems starting to arise but at the moment I am confident that it is the right setting to meet his needs at the moment.

In the future who knows, when it comes to time to consider secondary schools I will look at all the local provisions mainstream and specialist and then start to decide which may be better for him (and then be ready for the impending fight!)

but they will still assume that the child can obey blindly all rules and regulations without realising that some of those rules cause problems. So you have Great Yarmouth Academy in the news with their tight rules who have already excluded an autistic child for "not making eye contact and tracking the teacher". Oh the child is welcome in their school certainly but only if his SEN doesn't affect their rules. If it does then....bye bye.

Exactly, but what is the problem here? This being a mainstream setting? Or this being a mainstream setting with crazy, harsh, discriminatory, unworkable, inflexible rules with disproportionate punishment and no hope of resolution?

It saddens me to see some schools seeming to pride themselves in this kind of dehumanising treatment.

musicman
You had a problem in a class whilst doing 1 day of supply. You have concluded that the autistic child in that class should have been in special school.

Autistic children have good days and bad days. Days when an unfamiliar adult is unexpectedly in charge are often bad days. Despite this, the child just talked across you, they didn't scream it meltdown or end up curled under their chair.

Might I suggest that the teaching assistant should have been more proactive in managing his behaviour, he should have been given a warning of your arrival and a brief fact sheet about you and you him, telling you 3 things to do or not do. He should, and you should, have been better prepared by school; the school failed both of you that day. Had you made any of these comments you would had a decent point. However when you extrapolate from that clear evidence that the child should not and should never be in that class is where you lose the argument. You cannot know that from one experience on one day which provided the break from routine guaranteed to freak out lots of autist children. The fact he managed his discombobulation with humour, albeit inappropriate, rather than distress or anxiety actually suggests mainstream is very probably exactly the right place, with better planning for supply teacher days!

I think that most schools are struggling with the overload of pupils that now need extra support. I don't believe that we suddenly have more people with SN issues or neurological conditions, I think simply children are more likely to get help that starts from home rather than school being able to see only the most serious cases. I believe with the age of information upon us, parents are able to source their own answers, they can talk to people worldwide to find out and perhaps learn from, and also importantly they are able to find out what help may be available.

This is all good news for the children affected, although to get any help at all you almost need a diagnosis to get on a waiting list for initial assessment. I have experience of school staff working hard to put a barrier up for any kind of help from the only people able to make any kind of diagnosis, because in their opinion they don't see the issues. I am not saying they are wrong, perhaps they are not but I find it a strange process that parents are ignored even though surely they have as valid an input? The only people qualified to say whether a child has a condition is a professional in that field. The rest is purely educated guess work. It is scary that because it is making work harder for the teaching profession some are choosing to believe that there is an over diagnosis epidemic. Surely its easy to look back through our families and see with an almost lightbulb moment that this could be an explanation for why life was so much harder to deal with for some people? Its not that there are more people with ASD, its that more people are being helped and listened to. Funding needs to catch up with demand, of that I am sure! I do believe that early intervention will help further down the line. I have a good GP who acknowledges that a lot of prisoners were children that needed their signs recognised rather than being tarnished with the naughty brush.

My biggest and most loathsome problem as a parent of a child with ASD is him being punished for aspects of his condition. It makes me apoplectic with rage!!!!! Children with ASD tend to have self stimulatory behaviour (stimming) my DS rocks, paces and fiddles with anything that comes near him, its a compulsion. He has had chairs removed and made to stand, fiddle toys snatched off him, and when he then shuts down and refuses to communicate at all, he has been punished with internal exclusion for 'defiance'. Luckily he is now at a new school where so far when approached they are trying to help. I hope it lasts but I am scarred as a parent for the things my son has endured. It really effects you!

I totally applaud the teachers that works so hard, I know that this profession is super tough.

I was coming on to make the same point oldbirdy but you made it more eloquently.

Managing change is a big deal for autistic children as I am sure you already know from your years in combat musicman so I am sure you appreciated the issues that a lack of forethought created for this child. when confronted with a new teacher unknown by him and therefore the source of anxiety which could have been avoided using the strategies mentioned above. But oh, you didn't, you blamed the child, PC thinking, wooly liberals and their pesky 'equality'. Some children are struggling in mainstream provision, some have conflicting needs but many like my two can manage with minor adjustments and lots of understanding.

Some people with SEN children who can cope with mainstream schooling seem to think it's the right choice for all. I don't necesarily agree, I think it depends on the child, the degree of disability and the school.

I think SEN children should be supported to go to mainstream school if they want to go, but I think it's ok to say that some find it very hard and suit a smaller, specialist school better.

Sigh......OK, let's try to be clear on a few things.

The example I gave was just that, an example, a snapshot, no more. I've dealt with many situations both long and short term over the years in both mainstream 'inclusion' and in Special schools. My conclusion, unpopular though it may be, is that the interests of kids with SEN was generally better served in Special schools and that the kids themselves seemed much happier because the expectations were realistic, both educationally and behaviourally.

OF COURSE I understand that an autistic kid will usually freak out with someone they don't know etc etc, and I don't conclude from 1 day what should happen to him, I was using it as an example of what educators have to contend with week in week out.

Someone who sees lack of eye contact from an Autistic kid as a disciplinary issue is OF COURSE being thick as a brick, but that's my whole point, those people are not trained or motivated to deal with anything but the mainstream, so why be surprised when they sometimes do a bad job with a kid who isn't mainstream?

Everyone seems to think they know better than professional educators...oh hello Mr. Gove, fancy meeting you here...Well folks, there's a shortage, and also 25% of those who train to teach leave within 5 years, so by all means come and join us if you think you can contribute LOL. As for me, I've almost served my time now but it makes me sad to see so many well meaning people make so many mistakes just because they let a politico-sociological philosophy get in the way of thinking about what's best for ALL kids, and I'm telling you for what it's worth that in my experience inclusion is usually not the answer. The words 'elephant' and 'room' spring to mind.

Over and out. Love to all, byeeeeee...

I agree about the bizarre rules pondering but it's not just those schools causing problems. I am hearing all too often about autistic pupils being treated appallingly in mainstream schools.....too often.

Largely that is down to ignorance but when I hear of a deputy head of Year shouting at a kid who is cowering I do tend to lose the plot a bit. Kid in question is autistic and had sworn because someone had taken his pencil case from his bag...he didn't act rationally...he reacted irrationally....but so did the bloody teacher. My niece,...a secondary school teacher witnessed this and has taken it further.....thankfully her pre teaching training days were spent working in a Pupil Referral Unit and she is disgusted by what she is hearing and seeing in mainstream.

Kids being left to do GCSE Maths again and again (and fail again and again until they leave aged 18) because the functional skills in Maths and English are not deemed worth the school investing time in.

Some people with SEN children who can cope with mainstream schooling seem to think it's the right choice for all.

Just to point out, that is not me.

I made my posts in order to object to the claim that children with any degree of SEN are served better in Specialist provision and that Mainstream cannot cope with SEN or adequately make provision. Too often decrying the demise of Specialist Schools betrays a mindset which does not want to make any efforts towards being inclusive, at all. This is not the same as saying Specialist provision in undesirable or detrimental to education somehow.

I do believe in inclusion in schools and society at large. However this includes Specialist School provision within this. Some children's needs require them to have substantial additional resource and expertise easily available, through Specialist settings.

There is a vast spectrum regarding autism and other additional needs. I agree, for some children, Specialist provision is the best choice. But as you say, from the opposite way round, this is not true for all children with additional needs.

Kids being left to do GCSE Maths again and again (and fail again and again until they leave aged 18) because the functional skills in Maths and English are not deemed worth the school investing time in.

That's the government forcing GCSE resits rather than functional skills.

RidingWindhorses I thought that too. Until my DD started secondary school. The SS is huge! Their SENs provisions is just as good as DSs small school.

it makes me sad to see so many well meaning people make so many mistakes just because they let a politico-sociological philosophy get in the way of thinking about what's best for ALL kids, and I'm telling you for what it's worth that in my experience inclusion is usually not the answer.

Well, I'm pleased inclusion was achieved for my DC. I had to push for it. However it has, eventually, been very successful. One child, yes, but an example where inclusion has worked. And my child (-although fantastic) is not really that unusual. I have worked with and known many children like my own DC.

I could never say 'inclusion is usually not the answer' because of my experiences. I would be lying. It is possible and it can work.

I'm not simply 'well meaning' because that suggests a degree of ineffectuality. I have not been ineffectual. I also don't have any investment in any socio-political ideology.

Musicman keeps promising to leave but then doesn't. A shame, that.
The expression "you can't argue with stupid" is arguably overused on MNbut I do think it's relevant here tbh