15 year old daughter has just walked out of the house

[krustykittens]

More of a WWYD. Eldest DD is great most of the time. Funny, smart, great company, is fairly open with myself and her Dad. But she is so arrogant. Doesn't treat her little sister very well, constantly talks down to her and makes her feel stupid, has to argue black is white with us the whole time, ruins days out as result. It is exhausting and tedious. Then when she screws up, it is an all out screaming match, she NEVER admits she is in the wrong. I had a letter home from school today, basically saying she had to be taken out of her maths class for constantly disrupting it and that we are to talk to her. I call her in, not very happy and I read out the letter to her. Of course, it's all rubbish, she's not in the wrong, she refuses to discuss it. Now she has walked out of the house with no phone and we have no idea where she is. I have had enough. Everything is fine until we have to tell her off for something, then all we get is sneering and contempt. She has ruined the last two Christmasses and I am actually looking forward to her leaving home to go to university. It's not a teenage thing either, she has been like this since she was nine. She basically has some unpleasant character traits that she doesn't seem to grow out of or learn from. What would you do to punish her or just get it through her thick skull that admitting you are in the wrong and saying sorry is a much nicer way to live your life than acting the victim and treating others like shit?! Who the hell is going to put up with this once she is an adult?

Abbylee:

I have four DDs, two of whom are still teenagers. Three of them are either in university or have graduated. One is still slogging her way through school.

She has always been a chatter box and her teachers have complained since primary school that she finishes her work quickly and then tries to talk to other pupils, which is disruptive and unfair.
Teachers have been complaining for several years about this disruption.

...when she chatters to others still working, she is not taking into consideration that others may not find the tasks as easy as her and it is really causing them problems when she distracts them. It's not that she doesn't care, teachers have told me she goes out of her way to help her friends in class but she needs to see things from other people's point of view and adjust her behaviour accordingly.
More of the teachers' perspective here.

There is a lack of boundaries there, and as with her younger sister she seems to see herself as the teacher/mother. The lack of insight into how her chatting is disruptive and distracting is why I suggest the autism spectrum. The lack of boundaries is why I suggest a PD (or at least a strong desire to be in control, or to dominate, or a refusal to accept that the teacher/mother calls the shots and she is not the teacher/mother).

Teenage girls are not all 'crazy'. They do not drive all their parents crazy either. Some have issues that require diagnosis and treatment. Most are fine and do not get into trouble for the same problem behaviour for many years without any hint that they accept they are doing something wrong.

This particular girl disrupts family Christmas and other events on top of causing disruption in school for many years. I would be very keen to have the issues I have mentioned ruled out.

Autistic spectrum disorders can manifest themselves in girls in ways that are different from their manifestation in boys. Girls can be labeled and have a rough time in school if problems are not recognised and addressed.

...And it is harder for girls to live with the label of 'disruptive' because schools expect girls to be quiet and well behaved to a greater extent than they expect that behaviour in boys.

It's not just being chatty, FiveBoys - it's being disruptive and not altering her behaviour for many years despite school trying to correct her.
She basically has some unpleasant character traits that she doesn't seem to grow out of or learn from. And this.

Wow. This could be my 13 year old! She has just gone into Year 9 in a very naice school but from Year 7 she's changed beyond measure.

She was so excited to start in Year 7 but over the last three years she's just unravelled. She was finally diagnosed with ADHD over the Summer but things haven't really changed in terms of her behaviour at school. She is a nightmare, always trying to right other's wrongs, shouting at teachers, refusing to apologise to them if she feels they've been unjust. She had total "meltdowns" in her Year 8 exams and actually refused to put pen to paper in most of them and had to be moved. When we talk about it she cries. Really cries. She doesn't know why she gets so angry. She genuinely is incredibly paranoid - believing all the teachers hate her and target her. It doesn't matter what I say to her. I work in a school myself and I keep pointing out all the things they've put in place and how fabulous they've been, including all the times I've been in to see them but she can't see it. She was temporarily excluded at the end of Year 8 and despite trying to understand her - all the usual sanctions were put in place including no phone for the first two weeks of Summer. That was fun! (Apparently she lost her streaks whatever that means!)

Like your daughter she's lovely - she has such a kind soul and so this has been flummoxing me while breaking my heart.

Finally, I do think we're getting somewhere in terms of understanding this behaviour. She passed the entrance exam to this school literally right on the nose. They are in the top three in the league tables in our local area. She has never been very academic and that just won't ride for them - they expect lots of effort and top results (and why shouldn't they?). As a result DD started gravitating towards the "naughty" girls (not that there are many of them) instead of academia.

This is going to sond awful but bottom line is - she's nowhere near as bright as the majority of the other girls. This has chipped away at her self-esteem and confidence. We never discuss looks or weight but for the record she is genuinely stunning looking and incredibly, naturally slim but she genuinely believes she's unattractive and "too skinny". She's taken to plastering make-up all over her face - her routine can take up to an hour - and hiding behind big, slug-ugly eyebrows.

So...I have had a huge, long chat with her and I may be pulling her from her school and moving her to mine - a risk for us both. Pastorally she will receive so much support and academically she will be at the higher level. It is also co-ed which would relieve the Mean Girls pressure and she would be able to study the arguably less academic subjects such as photography or Health and Social.

Basically it's my fault. I knew she wasn't an academic and I should never have sent her there. I went to Grammar and hated every second of it myself but their relentlessness pushed me into achieving decent GCSEs and even A-Levels. All it's done for DD is make her feel totally and wrongly inadequate.

ASD isn't an insult.

I would leave no stone unturned to get to the bottom of this.

She will have to get along with people at university and at a job, and she will have to be able to do the give and take of friendships her whole life, and perhaps sustain an intimate relationship and family life of her own.

She is being treated as a discipline problem in school, and sometimes that approach becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Better to find out if it is really a matter that can be dealt with by imposition of consequences or if something else is at play here. There is a lot to be gained for everyone from figuring out what exactly is going on.

I think there is a lot of pony envy in this thread.

Thank you Math. I have a child on the spectrum as well as extended family. Im familiar with ASD. Im still of the opinion that being chatty isn't a red flag to ASD on its own but coupled with what you've now said - it does make a difference.

It's not just being chatty, FiveBoys - it's being disruptive and not altering* her behaviour for many years despite school trying to correct her
She basically has some unpleasant character traits that she doesn't seem to grow out of or learn from.

However what's made me now think of ASD being a possibility was the OP explaining at 04.47 that her youngest daughter had developmental delays. That always rings alarm bells with me.

*her rider is acting irresponsibly and putting both herself and her pony at risk of getting hurt/injured.
She is aware that not using a saddle risks pressure induced injuries for the pony?
That riding the pony without a saddle fatigues the animal a lot more than if she were using a saddle? *

Oh Dear God, that's ridiculous! Riding without a saddle is less likely to cause pressure and fatigue. It is not acting irresponsibly or putting the pony at risk. OP's DD has taken her pony out of the field to ride - to spend some time with an animal that she is obviously trusted to care for. Yes, OP has asked that she doesn't hack out without a saddle - but she'd rather that the bareback riding was in the field - saddles exist for the ease and comfort of the rider. So it will make little difference to the pony. If anything the OP's DD would come off easier without a saddle should pony trip/spook/buck which isn't ideal on a road, which is presumably why OP prefers bareback riding contained to the field.

OP - I'm watching this thread with interest as I have a DD approaching that age, and I'm starting to see some of those traits you describe. I also face the assumption that because she has a pony she's spoiled. People don't realise that the cost of keeping her pony is probably cheaper than the activities, sports and tech other parents pay out for, they just see the stereotype. If she's anything like my DD then the pony is probably getting the best of her behavior! There's nothing more grounding - literally - than a horse, it'll put you on your arse no matter who you are, most kids work this out early enough and behave accordingly.

I am a year ahead of you with a teenage daughter. It's very difficult unless you live with them day to day to see the complete flip from the sweet smiling person to the angry, inconsiderate person they become when frustrated/ tired/ angry/ hormonal. They are just trying to deal with emotions we have sometimes learnt to deal with ourselves.
It's bloody hard, incredibly challenging, do I feel like running away and living in and island- yes, do I feel like shaking her and saying 'get it together'. We don't, we plod along through this time and they will by the grace of god come out of it well rounded nice human beings.
Remember you're in charge. Remember she is just a child. You are doing a great job by the sounds of it.
Good luck to you and all parents of teens!

Krusty - i didnt say that you don't show your child love. Strange and skewered thing to conclude from my post! She might just need more love/empathy/kindness/calmness then she's getting.

My own unhappiness as a teen was created by having unmet needs within my family unit. They were/are a nice mix of people with good hearts but struggled to use reflective thoughtful parenting.

Rhubarbz, I aplogise, that was how I read it yesterday and I did get upset. I am sorry you had a hard time as a teen, its not easy for anyone. I wouldn't go back to being that age if you paid me!

I see the whole ADHD thing kicked off an argument. I think it is a good point - if kids are misunderstood due to a special need then things are not going to get better. Asking the question does no harm and I am grateful to the posters who pointed it out.

Anyway, I managed to get hold of her teacher today and he basically said she was asked repeatedly to be quiet but when she rolled her eyes and huffed at him, she was sent from the room and rightly so. When she came home, myself and DH sat down with her and used the tactics so many of you suggested and didn't discuss it with her, just "this is what the teacher has said, we have no reason to believe he is lying to us, you are in the wrong and you will apologise and you will apologise to us for speaking to us so badly yesterday." She immediately got angry and started saying, "The teacher exaggerates, why don't you ask him about so and so who was mucking about," and we just repeated that we were not discussing it. She started crying! Stopped being angry, admitted she was in the wrong and apologised, so it worked! In the past, I have always let her talk because both myself and my husband were raised as very much, "you do what you are told whether you like it or not." and we always said we would talk to our kids. But what has been happening is that she starts winding herself up, it gets very convoluted, it becomes a he said, she said situation and we end up arguing over something that has NOTHING to do with what we were originally arguing about and every one (mostly me and her) gets very upset and angry. We felt so Draconian by not letting her talk, but hey, if it works!

The good news is that her teachers have no concerns about any PD. The teacher who disciplined her said she is a good student and normally a pleasure to have in the classroom. I told him about the anger at home, he said they never see that in school but that his own kids were the same way at that age. It is easy to get angry at Mum and Dad because they still have to love you.

Beerwench good luck! I do wonder if horsey kids are worse at this age because they have to be so confident to ride. We should do a study.

So thank you everyone for the good advice, I shall be more of a benign dicatator from now on if that is what works. Much happier with her today and I am really pleased that she has promised to apologise to her teacher at the next lesson. I think she will do it as she normally gets on with him very well but I will be checking!

PS. To everyone who said I was expecting too much you were dead right. Teenagers can't be reasoned with! I've learnt my lesson and hopefully I can handle things better from here on in. I'm sure its not the last time something like this is going to crop up between now and Uni!

I used the told once in a clear, concise and direct way and no discussion. If they carry on its onto the broken record technique where I repeat the request, say there is no discussion and then move on.
This is within a context of clear sanctions for not doing chores, homework and meeting the standards of courtesy.
Me: 'J, please tidy your room.'
Them 'But, blah, blah'
Me 'Your room needs tidying.'
Them 'Blah, blah.'
Me 'If your room isn't tidied then you won't be allowed to....'
Then leave it.

KrustyKittens, you sound like a really lovely, sensible mum. People saying that you need to take your daughter's pony away and that you just need to be more kind are talking utter bollocks.

Lots of teenagers are like your daughter and with lots of them the stroppy behaviour actually does start at 9 or 10 years old - my sister and my niece both started behaving a lot like your daughter at around that age. I totally see why you find it exhausting and infuriating and I do think stating your position and then ignoring and refusing to engage in an argument with her after that is a good idea. You obviously recognise your daughter's many lovely traits and it actually sounds like you have a good relationship overall, much better than many mums and daughters.

You're doing a great job. Cut yourself some slack!

KrustyK,
I asked ds about your dd bc he was often in trouble at school.

His take was thst she reacted to you like that bc she was ashamed. Then she went out, riding her good friend Pony and thought things through and didnt know exactly how to apologize so did as she did to make things better.

Remember two primary emotions are love and fear. Best to you both. She will get better. Just keep communicating without torturing her for being grouchy.

Is there a correlation with the calendar? My dd is unkind one day a month.

Have not read whole thread
But at 15 removing phone and privileged etc seems so odd to me
Just a year older than your daughter I was working my first job lived in my own flat and payed my own bills I couldn't imagine any one telling me what to do.
Seems odd to me. But then again I started life incredibly early so maybe it's my upbringing that was not the norm lol dunno.
i would try a more mature way to deal with it. Talking as adults with her etc.
Removing privileges like phones etc seems to much like a child's punishment. At 15 my punishment to her would be not giving a lift when asked refusing to give money until it was appreciated and respected. Good luck

KrustyK, hang on in there it will get better.

Krusty, you have received some excellent advice on here.
Remember nobody can argue if there is not someone else arguing back.

Also just want to say, love the way you have dealt with/responded to the 'stick the boot in' brigade and the 'nothing to add WUM's'.

Thanks Krusty - good luck to you as well. And yes I think you're right about the confidence thing! Glad your approach worked!

you are the only poster advocating taking away her pony
On a public forum - that is perfectly normal, not everyone shares the same views.
You can disagree with it but it doesn't make mine wrong.

You come across as quite arrogant tbh. And overinvested in this thread
I disagree with the arrogant remark.
As for 'overinvested'....why - because i replied to OP's response to my original post?

Muppet!

Yay!

So glad you talked to the teacher and didn't engage afterwards when you and DH had the discussion with her.

I want to add that it's great that your DH is so on board here too.