15 year old daughter has just walked out of the house

[krustykittens]

More of a WWYD. Eldest DD is great most of the time. Funny, smart, great company, is fairly open with myself and her Dad. But she is so arrogant. Doesn't treat her little sister very well, constantly talks down to her and makes her feel stupid, has to argue black is white with us the whole time, ruins days out as result. It is exhausting and tedious. Then when she screws up, it is an all out screaming match, she NEVER admits she is in the wrong. I had a letter home from school today, basically saying she had to be taken out of her maths class for constantly disrupting it and that we are to talk to her. I call her in, not very happy and I read out the letter to her. Of course, it's all rubbish, she's not in the wrong, she refuses to discuss it. Now she has walked out of the house with no phone and we have no idea where she is. I have had enough. Everything is fine until we have to tell her off for something, then all we get is sneering and contempt. She has ruined the last two Christmasses and I am actually looking forward to her leaving home to go to university. It's not a teenage thing either, she has been like this since she was nine. She basically has some unpleasant character traits that she doesn't seem to grow out of or learn from. What would you do to punish her or just get it through her thick skull that admitting you are in the wrong and saying sorry is a much nicer way to live your life than acting the victim and treating others like shit?! Who the hell is going to put up with this once she is an adult?

Evelyn I don't mean to be rude, but you are projecting an awful lot. I wrote that comment about her sister because I wanted to acknowledge that neither of the girls are perfect and they both know how to get on each other's wicks, despite loving each other very much. You also missed the bit where I said she was over protective. This leads to her trying to parent, which doesn't go down well with her little sister. Sometimes, she joins in with me when I am telling DD2 off for something (like going out without a saddle) and it makes DD2 feel ganged up on, which leads to a row between the pair of them. DD1 needs to just be a sister and try and fight mothering urge! Of course, sometimes they are just plain nasty to each other....

Thank you to everyone who has been the voice of reason. She WILL outgrow this, she is a lovely girl and when I read about what some people put up with on here I know I am very lucky. I am going to call the school tomorrow and discuss the letter with them and wait for her to calm down.

BeachyKeen You are a terrible shit stirrer! I know it is lovely but I worry about them and would prefer they kept bareback riding to the field we own. Not that they ever listen!

Evelyn Yes, I do genuinely apologise to my children when I screw up as does my DH. We believe in parenting by example. When we mete out sanctions for bad behaviour, we explain why. That doesn't mean that the children think we are reasonable. Especially at 15.

Bekabeech I raise my children to a certain standard, you know, be polite, don't bully, be considerate, etc. So I tell them off when they behave badly because I have made the effort to teach them right from wrong so they can't use ignorance as an excuse. Oddly enough, when DD yells and screams and says horrible stuff, she does come back and say sorry and look for cuddles, so that is one theory of yours out of the window. Is she only being nice to me the other 99 per cent of the time hoping I will love her? I hope not. But I suppose you could level that accusation at any stranger on the internet while knowing nothing about their home life. As for the language I used to provoke her today - "The school have sent me a letter, " I read it out, instant meltdown.

LakieLady Yes, she does apologise, every time and gives me and her dad a big cuddle. She is very loving and cuddly, always has been. I just wish it didn't have to a knife fight before hand.

being wrong or making a mistake is human- it is not a weakness or a flaw - actually it is seen as a strength to be able to say sorry and mean it and not see that you are less than perfect because you made a mistake. this is what we need to teach our kids

i don't believe all kids grow out of it as they turn into adults - some adults never learn to say they are wrong - this leads to very difficult dynamics in a relationship and can be seen as "abusive" behaviour .

I have just got divorced from someone who could never see his part in anything - always had a reason for doing what he did - so get i got it cheap of a mate etc - or i had to do this because of xyz - but nobody else was allowed to do the same or even point out his double standards. Maybe this is a result of his DM always covering up for him as a child.

My DD is also being extremely challenging - i have got my own thread in relationships - it is draining the constant battle - and i am without support.

To those adults who cannot say they are wrong - please look at yourselves it makes you no less of a human and you could be saving someone else from a huge amount of pain just by being able to say "im wrong Im sorry" thats it - simple words but can have a huge effect on the dynamics of a relationship either to parent/child/ or adult/adult

op

No apology yet, but she is back from her ride in one piece and has offered to cook dinner. Sorry, I can't remember who said it, but I don't think it would be fair to take her pony away from her. The animal loves her to bits and I think it would be very cruel. It's not like banning her from the TV! I will talk to her about this when it all calms down and ask her how she feels about herself in general, some people have made good points about her possibly having low self esteem.

My partner still is hypersensitive to criticism. Comes from low self esteem. Apart from the teenage brain thing, could this be your daughter? If so, it helps when I make it clear that I am criticising behaviour not person (if there's something I want to address with him!). I also view it as so much sound and fury, eg you can shout about it but I understand it's coming from a place of fear so I'm not going to change what I do, I also am not going to get drawn on to shouting too.

Im yet to be on the end of teenage offspring, but your daughter is reminding me of myself at that age. I would have enormous rows, and would go walking until I wasn't angry any more. Grounding would have had absolutely no effect on me, and I reacted very badly to people telling me 'because I said so' as a discipline tool. Not saying this is you, but it was some teachers at my school. I thought they were idiots. I might have appeared to be arrogant, I was mostly just full of self doubt and am I good enough. Reason worked really well with me, plus an appeal to my sense of personal responsibility.

Might be about to be controversial here, but I've been reading a book called Beyond Consequences, Logic and Control (recommended by a Mumsnetter and really about extreme and destructive behaviour) and it really made me think about how I deal with the kid's conflict. We all know shouting matched don't help, but do it anyway! But the message in this book suggests that the behaviour comes from a fear state (hence the regression into toddler like behaviour, as its a primitive and sub-conscious emotion).
What they need when in this state is not sanctions, but reassurance that they are loved and you will help them. Just like a toddler. Opinions?

Tell her you expect her to admit it when she is wrong.
Are you a scary angry? Or overly accusatory?

Your dd has come in with a different attitude now and has offered to cook dinner. So let it lie now. Its over. Her attitude is enough. I believe with teens you need to start afresh every day and forget what happened yesterday.
Twillow makes a good point about this coming from fear. Maybe change tactics as something is not working so why do more of the same. Give her a hug. It will be an unexpected response and possibly break the cycle. Try this for a while and see what happens.

Beatrice we have told her this. We have told that people respect those who can be honest and admit they are wrong and that sorry goes a long way to soothing the most ruffled of feathers. It doesn't work!

And actually, I am not looking forward to her going to university, I was just steaming when I wrote that post. RIGHT NOW I wish she could bugger off to student digs for a term, but I know by the weekend she will have rounded up a load of sweet treats she knows I shouldn't be eating and persuade me to watch Friends on the sofa with herself and her sister all night and I will want to lock them both up so they could never, ever leave me and get lives of their own. That post is light hearted, so please don't feel the need to analyse it!

KK she won't listen to you. She needs to he's it from someone else- perhaps a therapist. She sounds quite unhappy and as though she has low self esteem, as others have said.

If you take away the phone that will only fan the flames of her anger, and play up to her victim mentality. Why don't you try and reward good behaviour, eg. A new bridle if she gets through a week without disruption in class?

*hear.

Btw sometimes anger can be a mask for another strong emotion such as anxiety- and if she is dominating family life with anger, she'll feel more in control.

I would stop playing her game of you accepting her apology and then wanting cuddles. I wouldn't accept her apology, because she is knowingly behaving the same way, again and again. She isn't sorry one bit! If you're truly sorry you don't keep repeating the same behaviour. She's just offering an apology to keep you wrapped around her finger and to make her life easier. Her antics turn your whole house into a war zone. I would never tolerate that.

From 11 to the end of sixth form my daughter could be a nightmare. Sometimes nice sometimes really horrid - door slamming, shouting, swearing, went off it strops, refused to answer phone - it was really bad at times. Suddenly at the end of the A Level exams she became an absolute delight - it was as though she had been switched with a doppleganger. She is a gorgeous, witty, clever young lady. We all laugh about it now but at the time it really hurt.

There is light at the end of the tunnel ........ just roll with it she will improve

GreenBeret I just want to say sorry about your situation. Stories about people like your DH are what worry me, I really do not want this trait to become a permanent part of her personality and destroy relationships and ruin jobs for her. I am sorry you are going through such a hard time with your DD.

I've got 3 DDs. And the grey hairs to prove it. It's a phase, a testing exhausting battering phase but she will come out the other side. She's testing her boundaries, and seeing how far she can go - with you, and school. I found that not engaging with the endless arguments and goading worked best for me, and that punishments were worse for the rest of us than her............ you have to keep something good going in her life with her ponies, but it's just constantly reaffirming that you love her but not her behaviour. It will get better, honest

It's not something I'd find easy to deal with myself, so I'm not minimising, but my mum could have written this about me as a teen. If it reassures you, I now pride myself on responsibility and accountability, and part of my job is holding others accountable for their actions towards the most vulnerable in society. As long as you don't give in to her strops, but also don't shut her out, she won't be an entitled teen forever. This is some kind of test of nerve and love. I don't know all the whys and wherefores, but it's a toddler-style boundary pushing exercise. All you can do is continue to be firm and fair, and ride it out. She's still not an adult, and if you think back to yourself at the same age - even if you were well behaved - you can surely remember being irresponsible and generally cringeworthy? It does sound unbearable, I get that, but I'm very sure that it won't last forever.

How is she disrupting the class? Sorry if I missed this. Is it talking, aggression to other students, challenging the teacher?

Teenagers are toddlers in almost-adult clothing, regarding impulse control and behaviour. I don't have kids, but I've taught teenagers for almost 20 years. I default to natural consequences most of the time - if you choose not to work in class, you'll have homework, and if you don't do it, you'll have to stay in at lunch. Some kids choose that. Their choice.

The whole owning behavior thing comes *so late for a lot of them. If you can be more sorrowful than angry, and 'this is how it is' then that works for me at school. I think fear of consequences can make it worse, so a practical plan to work out an answer to the problem, with high expectations of behaviors, can be an option.

Not sure if this helps, and not being patronising! Apologies if not helpful.

mygorgeousmilo Yes, I do cringe looking back at myself! She really is a lovely person 99 per cent of the time but she has GOT to learn to take a telling when she does wrong. She is trying to find a job, which might knock some of the rough edges off but she is too young for any of the jobs going around us locally. I think something like waitressing would help with the attitude. I started work at 15 but very few places seem willing to take on minors now.

VeenyCat From what I can tell from the letter, it is just constant talking and distracting other students. And actually, your post is very helpful, thank you. Food for thought.

@Evelynismyspyname

I so feel you on the 'oh I'm wrong again, as always' followed by 'you two are so horrible to me and ganging up on me'

It goes both ways

I should have RTF .. ignore any comments of mine which are repeats you've addressed already - sorry x

krustykittens ah - teenage girl politics! I have two year 11 classes, and today we had class photos. One girl group, from one class, I could leave. The other class needed cajoling back to lessons because they couldn't leave their friends.

I'm now on my 6th seating plan with that class. They work, and are lovely, but they *talk and disrupt because of the mix.

Yes, your daughter needs to step up. But in your case I'd be going in and having a conversation with the teacher and the head of year/ head of department. It's early in the year to have contacted home, if your daughter has been off the radar so far, so I'd want a proper discussion.

Veeny, I was going to ring and try and talk to the teacher involved, do you think it best we make an appointment instead then? Should I be very worried about this?!

has she always been jealous of her sister?