Religion

[crazydil]

There have been a few threads in regards to religion and without exception there are always a few posters who cannot help themselves from being disrespectful.

Is it difficult to get a point across without a slight dig? Criticism is part of a healthy discussion but to be so rude about something that is very important to some. ..is it really needed?
I've never felt the need to be rude about anyones belief no matter how strange I find it to be.

So basically aibu in expecting respect in any conversation

I have no issue with religion as a personal thing.

The problem is it overspills its welcome, and has tendrils into places it has no right to be.

You can disagree without being rude

I completely agree, but as others have said the difficulty seems to be different perceptions about rudeness

I prefer to say "I can't agree with/accept that" or even something like "are you sure?" rather than telling someone they're a brainwashed fool, but even that's not enough for those who'd prefer religion and its effects not to be questioned at all. We see them on here all the time, when rational questions about even downright criminality are either not answered at all, or at best with "ah yes, but look at them instead"

No doubt they think everyone's being rude too ...

@EdmundCleverClogs and yet for some people religion rescues them.

For some people they need the comfort it provides in a hereafter

It's not all bad

I agree with religion not being forced on anyone, agree with it being removed from policy and I'm no longer religious myself however doing away with it all together even if it's possible for the sake of argument...

Won't always be helpful

be stripped of its social status

What do you want that to look like? Discrimination? Pogroms? There are Christians killed all over the world for their beliefs?

Fair enough to say any religion shouldn't be allowed to determine politics but I'm hoping you're going to stop short of discrimination.

What do you want that to look like? Discrimination? Pogroms? There are Christians killed all over the world for their beliefs?

Don't be ridiculous. I mean no prayers in schools, no faith schools, no draconian laws based on religion rather than economics, make bothering people with religion in the street or at home illegal, a separation of state and church, make places of worship actually pay taxes. No one should be persecuted for their beliefs, but no belief should hold power in the wider world.

That's fine then and I agree

Could you elaborate on the draconian laws part? I'm interested

Secularism should mean no privilege, no discrimination. It is not anti religious, its just not pro any one particular one.

Note that at the current time, the Christians (or muslims or whoever) who are being persecuted are not being persecuted by secularists, but by members of other religions (and atheists are of course also being persecuted).

LaurieFairyCake we're already working on them. Equal rights for same sex couples, women and so forth. Unfortunately, plenty still try and lower the abortion limits, that's an ongoing fight, but at least homosexuality has been legalised, though it's a fight for same-sex education to be given at schools.

Errol - A problem with secularism can be seen from France. But what they call secularism is in fact Catholicism. So no one would dream of going into work on Xmas day or Easter, as these are festivals, or of setting an exam on a Sunday. But if Jews, for example, need to take their holidays off (as part of annual leave) or not do a paper on a Saturday, this is suddenly a problem because of laicite (sorry - can't do the accents)

I object to children being taught religion as truth in the name of the state and with my money. I have no respect at all for those who create this immoral situation.

The religious want it both ways. They want the freedom to preach and proselytize. But demand special protections and 'respect' for their views so they can't be properly scrutinised, assessed and if necessary mocked and ridiculed, in the same way that any other idea someone might subscribe to, like vegetarianism or socialism. They can't have it both ways.

Scrutinise/assess/question/criticise all you like. But why on earth should anyone put up with mocking and ridicule. Whether it's in regards to their faith or their eating habits. What would make mocking necessary??

"Errol - A problem with secularism can be seen from France. But what they call secularism is in fact Catholicism"

That's not a problem with secularism. It's a problem with the way secularism is implemented.

With the Christian and Jewish lobbies so powerful would secularism ever work? We need to stop allowing our politicians to be bought and sold. Tbh I can't believe its even legal.

How do people (who want it) see secularism working in practice?
(Genuinely interested to hear your ideas)

I don't have any respect for religious beliefs and I don't see that as a flaw of mine. Nonsensical and groundless beliefs don't deserve respect.

How do people (who want it) see secularism working in practice?

Complete separation of church and state. No public funds spend on religious activities.

For example, state primary schools no longer having "Christian" assemblies. No religious exceptions to laws (e.g. mandatory motorbike helmets).

Bishops removed from the House of Lords, Church schools incorporated into the mainstream education system or to be wholly funded by the church themselves and religion as criteria for entry to school, to be made illegal, removal of blasphemy laws etc.

Public sector workers doing the job they are paid by the State to do, regardless of their religious beliefs. If you can't do the job, do something else.

Not all persecuted Christians are persecuted by those from other religions. N Korea, China eg

I stand corrected, madhairday - I must admit I didn't even know there were any Christians in north korea but that regime represses everyone who doesn't to the party line. I didn't realise China was still problematic. The persecution of people based on being of no religion or the wrong one that have been reported all too commonly of late are many and various. Even Buddhists now (maybe thats tribal/racial but religion tends to amplify and reinforce that type of problem)

Flying Spaghetti Monster
Imaginary friend
Pedophile prophet

As a thought experiment, FSM is an excellent tool.

exactly. the point is that you can't distinguish between FSM, imaginary friends and god. the point isn't to disrespect (though is undoubtedly an intentional side effect) but to show a deeper point.

the last is specifically a rebuttal to muhammed being a perfect example of man.

Scrutinise/assess/question/criticise all you like. But why on earth should anyone put up with mocking and ridicule. Whether it's in regards to their faith or their eating habits. What would make mocking necessary??

mockery and satire is one form of criticism. it's one way to do it, and sometimes it makes a good point, and sometimes it doesn't.

A problem with secularism can be seen from France. But what they call secularism is in fact Catholicism. So no one would dream of going into work on Xmas day or Easter, as these are festivals, or of setting an exam on a Sunday. But if Jews, for example, need to take their holidays off (as part of annual leave) or not do a paper on a Saturday, this is suddenly a problem because of laicite (sorry - can't do the accents)

that's not a problem with secularism - that's a problem with french secularism. That's not the only way.

As a staunch secularist, I'd say the french do it very poorly, for some of the reasons you point out. someone above said that religious people want it both ways, that they want to freedom to preach, while curbing criticism. I think the french are guilty of the same thing but backwards. Religious expression there is stifled, but you are free to criticise it endlessly. in the recent issues regarding free speech and religious criticism in france, I think french muslims have a point that their freedom of expression has (very large) limits.

Sound like thats a problem with catholics not recognising and renouncing their privileges, and discriminating against other religions.

I'm Christian, people can believe what they like and I'm quite happy to enter into an lively debate. I will not debate with anyone who comes out with the "sky fairy" or "invisible friend" mantra as they are probably more brainwashedand extreme and less likely to listen to other people's views than a jihadist

Creationism was taken to court in the USA. It was roundly defeated.

Whether it's in regards to their faith or their eating habits. What would make mocking necessary?? If you decide to believe in something as ridiculous as a god then it need to be repudiated with an equal amount of ridicule.