Religion

[crazydil]

There have been a few threads in regards to religion and without exception there are always a few posters who cannot help themselves from being disrespectful.

Is it difficult to get a point across without a slight dig? Criticism is part of a healthy discussion but to be so rude about something that is very important to some. ..is it really needed?
I've never felt the need to be rude about anyones belief no matter how strange I find it to be.

So basically aibu in expecting respect in any conversation

I like Mencken's take on this subject:

We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
H. L. Mencken

1. These are good times - fewer than half of people in the UK believe in God and it is getting lower and lower. We atheists are winning. Keep up the good work.

1. I don't think anyone should be rude to anyone else but you are free to say there is no God or that a religion that has male not women leaders is morally wrong and wicked and offensive etc etc.

1. If religious people are offended by people expressing views politely then they will just have to lump it.

BertrandRussell If you care about women then why cant you accept that different things make different women happy? Just because you don't want something for yourself that doesn't mean nobody else could.

And I don't like the idea of perpetuating anything which is used as a tool to oppress women
I've seen this said a lot in relation to hijab and I find it a bit daft to be honest. So many things can be used to oppress women, even having children. A tool cant do anything on it's own, the tool isn't the problem, surely it's the person using it and their intention?

samG76

Sorry I linked to the wrong thread (did a search and didn't realise there was a near identical thread), it's very similar in that it starts with hand shaking but there was a poster who did have people not wanting to do business with them. Correct link wonkylegs Mon 11-Sep-17 16:39:21

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3030881-Religious-custom-not-shaking-hands-with-a-woman

"BertrandRussell If you care about women then why cant you accept that different things make different women happy? Just because you don't want something for yourself that doesn't mean nobody else could."

I can accept that. You show me evidence that the vast majority of women around the world who cover do so entirely of their own free will and could go out uncovered this afternoon and suffer no consequences then I retract everything I've said.

Patriarchal Bargaining.

www.jstor.org/stable/190357?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

I think there's a huge difference between attack on faith and attack on a person.

I've been around these threads a long time. Mostly, people have kept it to attack on my faith, and I have no problem with that whatsoever, because if my faith is too weak to cope with attack then it is no faith - and besides, I welcome the chance to explore further and educate myself. I think there are certain phrases which get a bit old and tiresome - sky fairy, imaginary friend etc - but I don't find them to be an attack on me as a person if used as a general rant against faith. The difference comes when someone tells me I am thick and deluded, that I am brainwashed and have no idea of making decisions for myself. I've had a few of these, and they've hurt a little. I'd understand it more if I'd earned that attack in some way - I do think respect needs to be earned, and if I was going round telling people they are going to hell or whatever then I'd understand it.

I'd love it if we could be all peace and love and tolerance, but the truth is people don't always act in a way which brings that about. People do crappy things and Christians have done some very crappy things. When it comes to my faith I go by St Peter's advice, that we should be ready to answer any questions people ask - is don't force it at people, but engage if asked - and that we should do this with 'gentleness and respect'. Sadly, religion generally has a bad name when it comes to gentleness and respect and I get pretty angry about that.

I completely get why people attack faith and use good robust arguments; faith seems like so much bollocks, I know. But I still have it, and in that endeavour to respect every person and remember we're all just humans who need a bit of kindness.

@BertrandRussell they don't WANT to go out uncovered

Yes. Some women will be forced and might want to.

Lots - would choose to stay covered not because of their being no consequences

But because they choose to cover up for various things- they feel modest, they get less attention, they keep their bodies for viewing by who they choose I don't know I'm not religious anymore, it's how I felt when I was

I was told and @StatelessPrincess will be able to confirm if it's actually true or not as I'm not and never have been a Muslim but that you could have a less religious person choose to wear a burka simply to avoid attention and a more religious person not wear it because they didn't feel it was necessary to their faith.

I always personally assumed it was ultra religious who wore burkas so I was interested to be told this and fascinated if its true generally

I completely get why people attack faith and use good robust arguments; faith seems like so much bollocks, I know

For me, it's not so much this as the fact that religion affects me whether I like it or not. If it was just private faith then I would care less. But religion is political in the sense that it has power and it is omnipresent in national and international relations. Live in NI and can't get adequate birth control - it's because of religion. Feeling that the world is about to implode its because of that nutter in North Korea religion. OK - so that was a bad exmple, but the CofE has an awful lot of power even in local politics. So sometimes I think that people who complain about attacks on (their) faith are overlooking how much power they actually have.

Yes, I get that too, YetAnother. I don't think religion has any place in the oppression of people and am sad that it has. My faith is in Jesus who was all about defending the weak and the poor; when religion does the opposite it's just shitty and needs challenging. Which I try to do.

faith seems like so much bollocks, I know.

It doesn't seem it, it is bollocks I'm afraid. Calling someone 'brainwashed' does seem rather beyond the pale, but I can't see how else to describe it myself. Religion is the biggest mass society brainwashing on our planet. Centuries of telling people to believe or 'face the consequences' has lead to generations accepting it as fact. Even when faced with mounting evidence that structured religion has no real truth to it, people will still believe. It's so ingrained in some that even if it was proven once and for all that there is no God, they still would rather carry on 'believing'.

Yes, I get that too, YetAnother. I don't think religion has any place in the oppression of people and am sad that it has

But it's not just that. Even I have a soft spot for a bloke who can turn water into wine ... but what I also mean is that religion should not have any special or undue influence politically in any way.

You can't 'prove' there is no god. Like others I don't take exception to 'sky fairy' or anyone slagging off my god.

I don't like (as an intelligent, liberal, left wing, feminist) to be told I've been 'brainwashed' or I'm 'stupid'.

No one brainwashed me, I found a belief in universal consciousness (and an understanding of the historical Jesus as a person - there is no doubt about that) all by myself.

I'm pretty sure most people would take exception to being called 'stupid' though

It's a crucial issue for our age particularly as we non believers now outnumber the religious in the UK. So I would support the right of students to wear "Jesus and Mo" T shirts even if that upsets religious people. Terms like sky pixie I regard as a bit rude just like those people who say because I work full time I abandon my children to strangers are a bit rude (and inaccurate) but that is not a personal attack. Someone being specifically rude to one individual rather than saying anyone who believes in God or thinks the tenets of islam or christianity are all accurate or the world was made in 6 days or whatever is wrong, should not be rude but that would not make me want them censored. If we can avoid censorship as much as possible so much the better. Nor would I censor words read out in a church regularly about the sin of sodomy or women to submit to men. Let freedom of speech prevail - even the "hate" speech of the bible.

Nobody chooses belief

We don't sit down and examine all religions and say I didn't believe but this ones ok so now I do

Belief is fickle! It morphs depending on experiences. It's there or it isn't there!

It's not "chosen" even though you think there's enough evidence to "choose not to believe" that's impossible- you believe or you don't believe

If you don't believe then you might look for reasons to justify leaving a faith

If you do you might look for reasons to validate joining one

Nobody chooses belief

Of course they do. Most are indoctrinated since birth but you still choose to beleive.

You can't 'prove' there is no god

I can't prove there's no unicorns either, or there's no such place as Hogwarts just because I read about it in a book. I can say with great confidence that the Earth wasn't made in six days, or the whole world flooded leaving 'two of every animal', or there was such a thing as the Tower of Babel, or the plagues of Egypt, or Herod ordered the mass killings of babies in Jerusalem, or there was a man called Jesus who had magic powers (I could go on). Even the 'Jesus existed' fact is easily up for debate, considering most writings about him are from biased sources (Jewish and Christian). It could easily be a case of he did exist, but everything known about him was hearsay, propaganda and exaggeration. There is no evidence of miracles or anyone being raised from the dead (of course, Easter itself was created purely from cultural appropriation, not unusual in Christianity).

Regardless, it's not up to atheists to prove there is a god. If religion wants respect, it's up to believers to prove without a doubt that it isn't just ancient stories.

No you don't.

You can't make yourself believe something just because you want to

You can't stop yourself believing something just because you want to

Experiences shape beliefs. Not choice!

I don't know. I often think about what it would take for me to leave the whole faith thing behind. I'm intelligent, educated, a person who thinks things through carefully (probably overthinks, tbh) - why on earth do I retain faith? Am I clinging to something because I'm scared of the world, or scared of consequences? For me, it's nothing like that. It's to do with lived experience, or something that utterly works in the deepest and darkest spaces of me, that brings freedom and joy. And that's so many people's experience through the ages - of something beyond reason. So it's very difficult to apply reason - but no excuse not to, as far as is possible, which is why I carefully study my faith and the reasons for it.

I get it, though. It looks daft. But it is freedom...

@EdmundCleverClogs for some, they don't need all that to be literally true for their faith

For some the bible stories can be allegorical.

You don't need to believe it... but many of them don't literally believe it either yet still hold their faith

but many of them don't literally believe it either yet still hold their faith

On what bases? If they are only stories, then the faith is based on empty meaning.

You can't make yourself believe something just because you want to

People categorically can. The human brain is exactly capable of doing just that.

You can't 'prove' there is no god
I don't understand how people say this and not realise the complete lack of logic in the statement.

None of us go around our daily lives "proving" that things don't exist or don't happen. It's impossible to do so. You simply cannot prove the absence of anything. It's nonsensical.

As a general rule, I agree with the OP: I think everyone should be polite if they can be. But I think politeness is all you can expect; as the HL Mencken quote suggests, you can pretend to respect someone's beliefs while privately thinking they're absolutely ridiculous. In other words, you can't ask people to respect your beliefs, just that they pretend to respect your beliefs.

And I think there's a bit of a double standard. In my experience, people who follow one religion can be very rude about followers of other religions. Not everyone who attacks Islam, for example, is an atheist.

Maid

I only said 'you can't prove there is no God' in response to Edward saying 'even if it was proven there is no god...'

Obviously you can neither prove nor disprove there is a God (at the present time)

Obviously you can neither prove nor disprove there is a God (at the present time)

There isn't a god until one is proven to exist though. There is no need to disprove something that isn't shown to exist.