Religion

[crazydil]

There have been a few threads in regards to religion and without exception there are always a few posters who cannot help themselves from being disrespectful.

Is it difficult to get a point across without a slight dig? Criticism is part of a healthy discussion but to be so rude about something that is very important to some. ..is it really needed?
I've never felt the need to be rude about anyones belief no matter how strange I find it to be.

So basically aibu in expecting respect in any conversation

Don't they? Saudi rule to their interpretation of the Qu'ran. Just because someone else interpretation is different, who is to say which is wrong?

They don't rule with their interpretation. They pick and choose and mix abit of culture in their too. Illegal for women to drive=culture.
Illegal to drink alcohol=religion.

Saudi segregates based on sex, so how can women have male drivers. Wouldn't it make more sense if they drove themselves around instead of being in the company of unrelated men?

Illegal to drink alcohol=religion.

and yet when I was at Uni, my muslim housemate had a really heated discussion with a muslim friend over this.

His interpretation was that "you mustn't get drunk", whereas his friends was "it is totally forbidden". The key point seeming to be that it would be an insult to pray when drunk, and since you have to pray 5 times a day, you could never be sure unless you abstained.

op...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_system_of_Saudi_Arabia

The legal system of Saudi Arabia is based on Sharia, Islamic law derived from the Qur'an and the Sunnah (the traditions) of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. The sources of Sharia also include Islamic scholarly consensus developed after Muhammad's death. Its interpretation by judges in Saudi Arabia is influenced by the medieval (Islamic Golden Age) texts of the literalist Hanbali school of Islamic jurisprudence. Uniquely in the Muslim world, Sharia has been adopted by Saudi Arabia in an uncodified form. This, and the lack of judicial precedent, has resulted in considerable uncertainty in the scope and content of the country's laws. The government therefore announced its intention to codify Sharia in 2010, but this is yet to be implemented. Sharia has also been supplemented by regulations issued by royal decree covering modern issues such as intellectual property and corporate law. Nevertheless, Sharia remains the primary source of law, especially in areas such as criminal, family, commercial and contract law, and the Qur'an and the Sunnah are declared to be the country's constitution. In the areas of land and energy law the extensive proprietorial rights of the Saudi state (in effect, the Saudi royal family) constitute a significant feature.

I'm not getting any privileges.

So how much time do you have to book of work to take part in Christian festivals?

How often do your children need to miss a day's school if you want them to attend church at Easter or Christmas?

Not driving wasn't a problem for me or any of the women I know there as we were in a large city and had drivers and/or access to taxis. I can imagine for women who don't, or who live in more rural areas it must be really inconvenient

Inconvenient?

Imagine your child has just had an accident, you need to get them to hospital, you know how to drive and there is a car available but you have to wait for a male relative to drive you.

I respect people's rights to believe whatever they wish, but I do not respect the beliefs themselves.

Bertrand IMO there is no country that's truly Islamic and no government comes close. Not sure why you got the impression I think otherwise Sun. Out of all the countries I've been to I would say that the people I met in Malaysia and Indonesia seemed to behave in the most Islamic way.
existential If you think that merely saying somethings Islamic makes it so then you are the one talking unmitigated shit.

So in a truly Islamic state, if a woman chose to wear a mini skirt and a sleeveless top in the street that would be fine?

remember the 15 girls who died because they weren't allowed to leave the school they were in that was on fire, because they weren't covered up enough and all the fire service were men?

To my shame, I'd forgotten about that

To me in a truly Islamic state every woman would wear hijab but yes if someone was wearing a miniskirt then they should be bothered by anyone about it. Bertrand do you not realise that there are lots of places Muslim women can dress like that?

TAQIYYA

Can I mention once again that it's a practice worth remembering when accounts of what happens in an Islamic society appear not to match the reality?

Puzzledandpissedoff No, it isnt I'd love to know what your on about though

"To me in a truly Islamic state every woman would wear hijab but yes if someone was wearing a miniskirt then they should be bothered by anyone about it. Bertrand do you not realise that there are lots of places Muslim women can dress like that?"

So in your ideal state, women would always be covered - so that they can't be seen by men?

And yes, I know there are plenty of places Muslim women can wear whatever they like- but not in any of the so called Islamic countries. Rather my point.

I'd love to know what your on about though

Surely you must be aware of the practice and what it entails? If not, I warmly recommend having a chat with a local imam

... which is where my own information came from

I know there are plenty of places Muslim women can wear whatever they like- but not in any of the so called Islamic countries. I was talking about Muslim majority countries Bertrand, off the top off my head I can think of ten Muslim majority countries where some women wear miniskirts.
So in your ideal state, women would always be covered - so that they can't be seen by men? Yes.

Puzzled I'm well aware of what Taqiyya is, and what you've said doesn't make any sense to me.

"So in your ideal state, women would always be covered - so that they can't be seen by men? Yes."

So you're happy for women to take responsibility for managing men's sexual urges. Fair enough.

Which countries are you talking about?

I'm well aware of what Taqiyya is, and what you've said doesn't make any sense to me

I confess I'm genuinely surprised about that, since the issues around its use are accessible to all who wish to enquire

As I mentioned, my own learning came from a wonderful imam - who happens to be one of the best and most compassionate men I've ever met. It further occurs to me that if more religious leaders were like him (and I really am including all faiths in this) then we might be a lot further forward than we are

Puzzled It's not the concept of taqiyya that I don't understand, its what you said, can you explain it to me?

Bertrand Men are responsible for their own behavior. Preventing someone from seeing my body is not the same to me as being responsible for their sexual desires. I've explained my views on hijab on other threads that you were also on and I don't wish to do it again.
Ten Muslim majority countries where some women wear miniskirts are- Kosovo, Albania, Tunisia, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Malaysia, Indonesia and Lebanon.

If you think that merely saying somethings Islamic makes it so then you are the one talking unmitigated shit

No, I'm saying that when vast numbers of muslims, entire countries no less, call something Islamic, then who are the rest of us to argue?

I notice you don't respond to any of my points. You stated you don't know any women in Saudi who are oppressed. You ignored all of my points on that: because you know you are wrong.

Is your faith so weak you have to lie so brazenly in your defence of how people practice it?

existential You just come across as rude and aggressive and you've said I'm talking shit and lying anyway so I'm really not interested in responding to you.

So when countries say that they are Islamic, how are we supposed to know whether they are or not?

And I don't think you're lying, Princess, but I do think you might be a little naive. Your comments on women driving in Saudi would certainly suggest that.

That's convenient isn't it? Call me names so you don't have to answer?

Were the 15 girls who died in that fire oppressed or not, Stateless? A simple yes or no will suffice.

I don't know if 'true Islam' oppresses women. You will probably get a different answer from everyone you ask because like the Bible the Qur'an is interpreted a million different ways.

However I do experience that Islamic culture does oppress women. And where does Islamic culture come from? Divine decision or mans interpretation?

Believe what you will personally but the world will be a better safer place when countries are independent of religion.

does "true Islam" exist at all though?