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Political correctness gone mad - parents under fire from withdrawing their child from school after male class mate wears a dress.

762 replies

ThaiRedCurry · 11/09/2017 22:07

Ok so just catching up with my mail online news before bed. I've seen a Christian couple have withdrawn their son from school due to his male, 6 year old class mate wearing a dress to school.
They where on This Morning and have come under fire from viewers and the presenters for their decision to remove their son from the school as they don't agree with a boy wearing a dress.
I will just say I would find it a little odd but wouldn't withdraw my child from school.
I can't help but feel that if another race/religion did the same thing they wouldn't come under fire. It's as if white British folk are trying to be so politically correct we no longer can see what is ok and what isn't incase we offend some one.
I feel political correctness has gone mad 😖
I'm now going to sit and wait for Mums net abuse to roll in.

OP posts:
FerretsAreFeminists · 13/09/2017 20:35

Yes because calling someone the wrong name and getting confused about whether they are going by he or she today is exactly the same as a racial slur Hmm

SisterMoonshine · 13/09/2017 20:36

Thank you for the link to the petition.

I keep checking the wording of it though. 'changing gender identity' ...it's the idea of changing sex thats a problem.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 13/09/2017 20:40

Where is the lie? I bet the 6 yo doesn't even understand the concept of changing sex. They are just being who they are.

Wearing a dress is fine. Telling all the other children he is now a girl not fine.

You mean like forcing kids to stop calling another child a n*r? (apologies). Yes in school, its school rules. And if it is decided you call someone Jane rater than Jim then kids will get it in 60 seconds. Where is the lie?

Since when has "girl" been equal to that in the offensive stakes? If someone wants to be known as a different name, again done, but they have not changed sex

There is nothing wrong with a boy called Jane, who wears a dress. I don't think anyone would have an issue with this. The issue is with arguing that Jim is now a girl.

Userwhocouldntthinkofagoodname · 13/09/2017 20:45

Wearing a dress is fine. Telling all the other children he is now a girl not fine. Where is the evidence the child is doing that?

A racial slur is offensive, but is it, if you dont believe in different races?
A homophobic slur is offensive, but is it, if you dont believe in homosexuality?
A trans slur is offensive, but is it is you dont believe in trans people?

Its all the same.

Frequency · 13/09/2017 20:45

I dont imagine the child or the parents have chosen anything, a child just is what it is naturally

I don't think the parents sat down one night and thought 'you know what would be cool? If Alex was transgender'.

I believe what is most likely to have happened is that little Alex was in Primark with mummy and spotted a nice frilly dress with bows just like his sisters/the girl down the street. Alex, being six and not understanding that cis straight boys don't wear dresses, asked mummy if he could have the dress.

Mummy quizzed Alex 'do you like dresses/dolls/pink etc' Alex answered yes and no accordingly. Like most six year olds with no concrete understanding of gender roles Alex likes both girl and boy things. Mummy decides Alex must be non-binary and tells Alex all about non-binary. Alex doesn't understand. Alex just wants a pretty dress so he agrees he is non-binary because then Mummy will buy the pretty dress.

FerretsAreFeminists · 13/09/2017 20:48

Of course different races, gay people and trans people exist. No one has denied they exist.

I honestly have no clue what you're going on about.

StatisticallyChallenged · 13/09/2017 20:56

Again - read what the school say

"transphobic behaviour, which included an inability to believe a transgender person was a “real” female or male; refusing to use the person’s adopted name, or using “gender inappropriate pronouns”; and feelings of discomfort and an inability to trust or connect with someone based on their transgender status"

How is it NOT a lie to say that you can change sex, when you objectively cannot? The 6 year old doesn't understand, no - so why are the other children being expected to say that Alex is now a girl, should be referred to as she, and so on?

I think in years to come we'll look back on this in horror - that instead of removing social constructs which made people feel like there was something wrong with them because they didn't conform, we instead made massive changes to their bodies to make them better fit the construct.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 13/09/2017 21:01

Where is the evidence the child is doing that?

Because that is what has been widely reported. If in fact the child is wearing a dress, and he, his parents, and the school all agree that he is a boy wearing a dress, then yes, I would imagine the couple to be intolerant bigots.

^A racial slur is offensive, but is it, if you dont believe in different races
A homophobic slur is offensive, but is it, if you dont believe in homosexuality?
A trans slur is offensive, but is it is you dont believe in trans people?^

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make Confused Where has anyone said transphobic slurs are ok?

StatisticallyChallenged · 13/09/2017 21:03

I think, FerretsAreFeminists, that whether you consider people to be "denying trans people exist" depends on how you define trans.

If you define transgender as being people who wish to conform to some/all of the gender roles typically associated with the opposite sex then I don't think anyone has said they exist.

If you are referring to the subset of the trans population (and it is a relatively small subset) who display the more significant condition of gender dysphoria (or even body dysphoria or body dysmorphia depending on how you define/describe) then again, I think most people agree that those people exist - although where they differ from the transactivists is in what they think that means and how it should be treated.

If you are referring to the concept of being "born in the wrong body" which is often claimed then actually I think a fair number of people probably don't objectively believe that is possible. To do so requires a belief in some sort of soul or persona which exists independent of your body, and a lot of people don't have those kind of beliefs.

SirVixofVixHall · 13/09/2017 21:36

A 60 year old women, a humanist minister, has been punched in the face and throttled at a talk on gender tonight (in London) by transactivists. This is the reality of the trans agenda now, and the trans people who disagree, and support women keeping their single sex spaces, will suffer along with women.

StatisticallyChallenged · 13/09/2017 21:40

I saw that SirVixofVixHall. Surely going out and punching people because they disagree with your view, having them no platformed etc is the definition of bigotry - yet supposedly those attending the talk, were the bigots?

It's not like the talk was in any way vile, oppressive or abusive; simply discussing the effect of the GRC on women.

busyboysmum · 13/09/2017 22:36

Here are the shitheads that orchestrated it although the offending 'let's fuck up some terfs' post is deleted t.co/8VWsv4KQpk

Maryz · 13/09/2017 23:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArcheryAnnie · 14/09/2017 08:11

You mean like forcing kids to stop calling another child a n*r? (apologies). Yes in school, its school rules. And if it is decided you call someone Jane rater than Jim then kids will get it in 60 seconds. Where is the lie?

userwhocouldntthink I genuinely don't understand your analogy. Calling someone who is a boy "a boy" is not a slur. Calling someone who is a girl "a girl" is not a slur. Calling someone what you typed above is a slur.

I don't care if kids change their names, or their clothes, every day. That's not the issue - let kids be kids and explore who they are and what they like. Telling a boy child that he can become a girl by putting on a dress is a lie. Telling the other children that they must believe a boy child has magically become a girl by putting on a dress is a lie. It's pretty simple.

reallyanotherone · 14/09/2017 09:40

Years ago there was a c4 documentry about transsexual people- a variety of ages and both sexes.

It must have been between 2002-2006 kind of time, before all this "put on a dress and be a real girl" bullshit.

I wish i could find it. The people on it were honest, real, conflicted. You saw the transphobia, from the "middle aged tranny", to the younger male who passed easily as a beautiful woman. The women too, were very open about how they felt they should have a penis.

Some had gender reassignment, some chose not to, and again it was a great insight into the process.

Datun · 14/09/2017 12:03

Yesterday 20:32 Userwhocouldntthinkofagoodname

"What is damaging to the kid involved is to be told a lie that they can change their sex by putting on a dress."

Where is the lie? I bet the 6 yo doesn't even understand the concept of changing sex. They are just being who they are.

What concept of changing sex? There is no concept of changing sex. You can't change sex.

Unless you just meant it the same way as the concept of humans flying.

And if you tried to convince children that that was indeed something that could happen, then yes they will be confused. Correctly.

Frequency · 14/09/2017 12:28

I do think there are people out there who genuinely, deeply feel they've born into the wrong body and those people need care and support.

At the same time, it's become a fashion trend atm. Instead of breaking down the barriers that hold people back, this generation is building more boxes to put people in. If a girl likes wearing jeans, having short hair and playing with cars she must be a boy because they are 'boy things'. We've taken a massive step backwards. It's damaging to women, men and genuine transsexuals.

I have no problem with using whatever name or pronoun someone prefers. It causes zero harm to me but things are starting to go too far now. A transitioning man, is not, in a care setting, a woman as per an existing thread on MN. They're just not. They may be genuine and if so they deserve care, support and understanding but at the same time the teenage DD in question needs care and support. The carer's rights do not trump the rights of the child.

A man in prison who suddenly decides they want to be a woman also needs some kind of help. Let's face it mentally healthy men do not decide to identify as women for any reason. What they don't need is to be moved to women's prison. They're not women. They might look like a woman, they may even feel like a woman and they have the right to look and feel however the fuck they please without discrimination but imprisoned women also have rights. They have the right to feel and be safe.

As far a kids go, I believe there's a fair bit of brainwashing going on either intentionally or accidentally on the part of parents these days (not in all cases but in most of them particularly with younger children). Parents who are keen to be progressive and accepting, as admirable as they are, are doing their children a massive disservice by blindly accepting the child is suffering gender dysphoria and/or inadvertently pushing the child towards becoming transgender in their quest to be accepting.

My child isn't straight 'gender normal' and I also give zero fucks about that. She's a child, she's way too young to be thinking about sex but who she plays relationships with, kisses, holds hands with etc does not matter as long as they treat her with respect and she is happy. Ditto what she wears. She wants to class herself as a gender fluid pans-sexual, so fucking what? If she's happy, she's happy.

At the moment she's happy to keep using her female name and female pronouns. If she changes her mind, so be it. I'll play along. She may or not grow out of this, again I give zero fucks as long as she is happy.

If she asked the school to use a male name (as her boyfriend recently has) I'd play along. I would not be happy with her doing boys PE or changing in the boys changing room. If she asked for that, I'd be seeking help for her because she is not a boy.

If she came to me and told me she feels she needs a male body, I'd be seeking support for her not sticking a pair of boxers on her and telling her she is now a man.

When she tells me people call her a lesbian, I tell her she is a lesbian. Her boyfriend has a vagina. Regardless of what pronouns he uses or how he dresses he his biologically female and to date has no intention of acquiring a penis or starting gender reassignment hormones. Therefore, he is female, they are in a lesbian relationship. I don't stand there jumping up and down and shouting lesbian at her or anything but I don't accept that she is not in a lesbian relationship. She is.

To my mind, she is also gender normal. She likes doing her make-up and hair. She hates dresses and pink and glitter. That to my mind, makes her a normal woman, not gender fluid. She's not a girl when she's sat in front of her mirror doing her make-up and then a man when she pulls on a man's t-shirt and jeans. She's a girl who prefers typically male fashion. I hate that she's making all these boxes to put herself in to explain why she likes what she likes instead of saying, "Hey, I'm a girl and I like these things and that's okay."

As far as post-op transsexuals go, they are closer to their chosen gender than the gender they were born with. They should have the right to live as their chosen sex.

A post-op MtF belongs in women's prison (if they commit a crime, of course) and they should use the women's loos and changing rooms (sports is a separate, muddier issue). Those who choose to live as a woman but retain their penis deserve to be treat as they wanted to be to a certain extent but as they still have functioning penis' they need to accept that there will be limitations on how far they can live as a woman.

Although, I'll be honest, the loos issue has always confused me. There are cubicles, does it really matter? Unless there are security guarding the doors, a man dressed as a man can fairly easily access a women's toilet if they want to be predatory. Ditto changing rooms (with the exception of communal changing areas with no cubicles)

StatisticallyChallenged · 14/09/2017 13:17

I think the issue is that there is no way to identify a post op MtF - or should I say to distinguish them from a MtF who has had little or no surgery, or indeed how to tell them from a plain old fashioned predatory male. Obviously a doctor can tell, but a woman in a changing room can't. Around me, most of the gym and pool changing rooms I've been in are at least partially communal - my local school pool, for example, had short side walls between cubicles, but no doors or curtains.

As you say, we've taken a massive step backwards including for "genuine transsexuals" who now find themselves under a giant umbrella which I don't think helps them.

Quite a few posters have compared the so called "transphobia" they believe people are displaying on these threads with homophobia and racism, and it's something I've been musing on because I felt like it was different but I couldn't quite explain why. But thinking about it more; race (as opposed to ethnicity) is largely a cultural construct. If you go back to times and places where racial segregation was a major feature, then this was about social rules - black people and white people were stereotyped as being different and then we enforced a segregation between them based on this social construct. When we 'fixed' it (and I by no means think racism is gone, but bear with me) it wasn't by telling black people who wanted to go to a white university or sit on a white bus, or love a white person, that they were really white and that they should bleach their skin and try to be white so they could do those things - it was by recognising that the social constructs we had in place were wrong and removing them. We've got a way to go, but slowly we are getting there.

Similarly homophobia. Culturally we used to believe that men should have sex with women and that anything else was wrong. We subjected gay people to horrendous treatment to try and make them behave according to the defined social norms. Then we stopped doing that - we said that it is fine to love someone from the same sex. We changed the social rules (and some legal ones which enforced the social ones) and recognised that those old social rules were too restrictive. We now recognise that the way we treated homosexuals was wrong; including things like the awful treatment we forced Turing to endure. What we didn't so is say "if you want to have sex with a man then that must mean you're a woman, so lets perform surgery on you to make you a woman"

In both cases we recognised that the social rules were wrong and that they needed to change and adapt. We're still doing that. But we didn't make people change their bodies to match the social rules they wanted to follow.

So why then when we have people who don't conform to the social construct of gender, so we say that it is in some way them that is wrong and that the solution is to change their body? Why don't we say that the social rules need to change to allow them to live as they want.

People accuse the so called "terfs" of wanting gay conversion therapy for trans people, but I think they need to look closer to home at which side is encouraging huge physical and biological changes in order to confirm with social constructs. And it's not the rad fems.

reallyanotherone · 14/09/2017 13:59

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Transsexual_Summer

This one. I will see if it's available on youtube, as i'd like ito see it again. I remember the narrative being very different to the transgender now, and it's only 6 years ago. Watching it i felt nothing but sympathy for what they were going through, whereas now i'm generally pissed off with the dress= girl gender stereotyping crap.

busyboysmum · 14/09/2017 14:41

StatisticallyChallenged very well said.

If we look at the repressive anti homosexual regime in Iran for example, they positively force homosexuals to change sex. It is mutilation resulting in sterilisation.

There is nothing wrong with a boy in a dress. It is when society forces upon that child the thought that if he wants to wear a dress he must be a girl that the issue gets confused. Because that is not true. He will always just be a boy in a dress. And why not?

Mumsnut · 14/09/2017 15:32

"If she asked the school to use a male name (as her boyfriend recently has) I'd play along. I would not be happy with her doing boys PE or changing in the boys changing room. If she asked for that, I'd be seeking help for her because she is not a boy. "

You wouldn't get that help, Frequency. Doctors advocating a 'wait and see' approach are being accused of conversion therapy. One on particular has been hounded.

I think parents have been threatened by SS with losing their children if they do not fully support transition. (Someone else will know the details).

Maryz · 14/09/2017 17:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SatelliteCity · 14/09/2017 17:09

Re: bullying and school policy. Honestly I don't thibk this even requires consensus on transgender issues. True statements can still be used to bully ("you're fat!" "you don't have a dad!") If they're intended to hurt it doesn't matter if they're true, we call it bullying. If they're not intended to hurt but do hurt because they're insensitive we explain that yes, maybe Johnny is fat but it's not nice to say so loudly and draw attention to him because it makes him upset.

If this kid is accidentally using he/his pronouns then gentle correction is needed. If this kid is calling the other kid a boy to get a reaction then he's bullying and should be treated as such. Understanding that treating Alex as a girl is what is kind to Alex, regardless of what you personally believe about gender is not beyond a 6 year old any more than teaching them not to shout "Santa's not real!" or "you're going to hell because you don't believe in God!"

StatisticallyChallenged · 14/09/2017 17:26

Thanks Maryz. The comparison had been niggling at me and I couldn't quite frame why.

Satellite I don't disagree that "you're a boy" could be used in such a way as to become bullying - but the part of the policy that says not believing a trans person is a real male or female is a whole different kettle of fish. On the flip side though, as a parent I try to help my child learn that they can't control other people's thoughts and feelings and that they need to differentiate between something which is actually being said to be mean vs something which is just not what they want to hear. We've had tears over being told she's like her dad, or being called little (daft kid stuff, basically!); when that happens it's not "so and so is bullying you" but "well, you are like your dad in ways x, y and z and that's not an insult" or "compared to a grown up you are little, and sometimes people will say things you don't like, you don't get to control everything other people say or think"

Maryz · 14/09/2017 17:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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