In challenging my dh when he flips out like a mentalist at the slightest thing the kids do .

[Spidermama]

My ds, on his way to bed, saw dh with a plate of supper he'd just made for himself (oatcakes and cheese) and ds jumped up to try to pinch a bit. I thought it was a jokey, blokey thing but dh leapt as if ds had nutted him, the supper went flying, and dh went into one, 'HOW DARE YOU. LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE. PICK IT ALL UP THIS SECOND'. Etc.

In a state of alarm I find myself leaping in to minimise damage and trauma from this sudden explosion which is all coming from dh. I tell him to calm down. Say ds didn't mean to knock stuff off the plate.

DH goes even more mental, like a 5 year old, stamps upstairs .. thinks better of it and comes back down again shouting, 'This isn't fair!'

Meanhile ds silently slinks up to bed withdrawn and pale. I say, 'I'm going to check that ds is alright.'

'You're going to check that DS is alright?!?' he rages.

Now he's upstairs watching telly. It's the only evening we've had together for a while and he's off again tomorrow. What shall I do?

I like the pic Spidermama - maybe it's a little too subtle for "man-ears"!

Also, I think you should just carry on being your normal motherly self to the children and not be censored by your dh's temper. I would hate it if dh was not nice to the kids just because I was grumpy, even if I was bellowing, 'oh, they've driven me INSANE today!'.

Your child is 7, still young enough to be frightened.

don't leave it until he's 14, full of testosterone, and you have two furious teenage boys who won't back down because they are both sure they are right.

You know, I used to fantasise about killing my dad in his sleep, he used to make me so angry when he was so unfair. They aren't nice thoughts for a child to have.

SM. That is so true! Your ds will end up with the same behaviour. I know you dont want that to happen. Im sure your son is a lovely lad. You dont want him to change. My mum left my dad so I cant advise on how to change the situation if you stay with him. But I can say that things DO need to change. You deserve better hun x

Or you could show him that childline advert where the dad rips the little boys book up.

ooh, yes that really is chilling!

Thanks mammalennon.

Colditz he hasn't actually hit the kids, but he has carried them upside down etc on a couple of occasions or grabbed them roughly. I've gone absolutely mental with him after these incidents and we haven't had one for over a year now.

Cashncarry you're right. Now's not the time. ONe problem is that we hardly have any time together. We're going out for my birthday meal on Thursday. This should make a fab topic of conversation.

MrsApron I see what you're saying and I think there is a way to understand his frustration. I think he was feeling resentful at having to do bed time as he's tired. He did offer to do bedtime (we've both worked today) so I let him. Actually I should have shared it with him. He often offers to do things then regrets it.

So I have an offer to put on the table.

please give your son a hug, poor little thing. he is the same age as my ds1 - they're just babies. he must be so upset.

it wasnt even his fault - if your dh hadn't jumped up, his dinner wouldnt have gone flying!

the most worrying thing is that he doesn't care and doesn't want to change. what is next? will he become physically aggressive?

i dont know, i mean, if he was sorry, or apologetic or anything, i'd say there was something to work with, but he doesn't care at all. what can be done with someone like that?

Interestingly Spidermama, my two brothers did NOT turn out like my dad. They're not great communicators, but they DON'T lash out in temper and I really think that was down to having my mum to mitigate his influence on them. So it is especially important that you are calm and motherly - they can learn a lot from watching you!

sorry vbut if he was my boy's dad he'd be dead and I'd be in jail for it. I could never ever let my boys go though what I did - you never know the baggage it's going to leave them with - I have remembered every detail of that evening when my dad trashed my room for 20 years, and always will, all my life.

Spidermama - I think you've asked and answered your own question. You just need to find the time and space to have a sensible discussion that will move you forward.

There'll never be a right time really, especially if it'll end in a row. Maybe you could talk about having the discussion at your birthday meal (if that makes sense). Him agreeing to talk about it could be part of your birthday pressie...(well, it's cheap!).

I must say it's very galling that wives often have to be the reasonable ones and find explanations and ways to move forward but hey - that's a different thread altogether!

I will confess to being mean to my kids. I don't think they should be taken away from me! I am also absolutely lovely and they love me. Yes, he wasn't very nice, I agree, but he was tired, there are a lot of them (which is fab, but tiring) and he is normally great, I gather.

That is no excuse for the over the top behaviour! He has a 7 yr old child ffs! He has a responsibility!

ok so his mother was violent-does that mean he thinks his upbringing was fine and acceptable then,if hes chosen to be like that also?surely ,if he grew up being scared alot of the time,he wouldnt want his son to have to go through the same thing?yet he says hes happy to be like that and doesnt want to change.strange.

Colditz i used to think about that too. Funny how it was killing them in their sleep far far too frightened to try to do it when he was awake.

My dad once very deliberately smacked my glasses off my face during an arguement when I was a teen. He knew how helpless it would make me feel and he bawled at my that he could do what he liked because he paid for it and i was to stand there and listen to what he said and he would not help me find my glasses.

My prescription is minus 10 i focus roughly 6 inches from my nose so this was terrifying.

The worst bit is he knew exactly how this would make me feel because his eyesight was as bad.

Spidey no your son might not grow up to be a bully, he most likely will already be an obvious target for one though.

My worry is that I can reason with him all I like, and intellectually he'll agree with me and make all the right noises (well, most of them) but these emotional triggers don't come from the intellect. They're deep rooted and need work to dig them out.

At the moment he can't help it. He turns into a 6 feet tall angry six year old in a couple of seconds.

Colditz I'm not surprised you remember it so well and every day. Has he ever apologised or realised what he did?

My dh threatened to hammer my other ds's special secret cupboard to pieces once in anger. There, I've said it. DS reminded dh of this over dinner this evening in fact. DH was sheepish and reiterated how sorry he was, but ds will always remember that.

I think the difference with this conversation is that you need to take yourself out of the equasion. DH needs to seek help separately, possibly from a professional.

Talking with you about it unfortunately won't be enough. He needs to take steps to firstly show his serious and secondly be accountable to someone outside the family.

I remember it was the evening before my first day at primary school and I was so excited that I put on my school uniform in bed. I was in bunik beds whispering with my sister.
My dad came storming upstairs, I pulled the bedclothes up so he couldn't see, he obviously saw me dong five year old child 'don't look at this thing' type behaviour, and pulled down the bedclothes. When he saw I had my school uniform on he pulled me out of bed and smacked me.

Like your colidtz he was a great dad in so many other ways, but I'll always remember this about him. It seriously tarnishes a relationship.

I am sure you are right spidey he needs to work on it professionally I mean. But he can and should work on it himself too by putting in ways of not reacting instantly.

Deliberatly damaging someone elses possessions is classed as domestic abuse iirc. It certainly feels like it if it happens to you I can vouch for that (dad again).

Look, I can't be on this thread any more.

but please please do something tangible about this. Don't make your beautiful sons grow up frightened for their property and their right to speak.

This is abuse, no, it's not serious, no, the SS probably wouldn't give a hoot, and neither should they really

But it's still abuse. I bet they're fucking petrified of whatever he takes it into his head to do next. I wish my mum had left my dad. I really do.

my dad had a bad temper as well - remember him lifting me and my sister up by the hair and saying he was going to bang our heads together - never really was violent but we were always worried he might be. Its a cheap way of getting respect and getting your way. As teenagers we got better at dealing with it - stood up to him and actually laaughed at him and it sood stopped - he doesn't really do it any more because none of us would bother to be intimidated by it.

Its learnt behaviour, and I do feel it myself - when my 2 young boys drive me crazy at the worst point I sometimes feel like throwing one of my dads temper tantrums, but I always stop myself because I know how bad it is. Losing your rag has a great effect for a few minutes, shocks the kids, they go quiet and frightened and do what you want, however there is a high price to pay because unpredictable behaviour makes children insecure (sometimes clingy & other behavioural problems). Kids seem to cope (as per emails) and learn to deal with it and will manage very well in later life when their boss throws a temper tantrum. However it is really bad, I feel for your children - ofcourse you rush to protect them.

My dh is very similar. On a perfect holiday evening he left a glass of wine by his lap top and of course ds of 4 knocked it over - dh blew his nut and during his tirade shouted ' you are a little shit'. How awful, I will not be surprised if ds brings this up in later life. Remind your husband that kids remember all those bad moments and can throw them back twenty years later.

My son of 5 has been throwing temper tantrums and so I keep saying to dh, like a mantra, we must always be calm because all behavious is learnt behaviour and he be picking up temper from somewhere... don't even raise your voice bla bla.

mamlennon - very interesting point. I feel my dh too would be prefectly happy if I only had him to 'look after' and just can't get his head round idea we are a couple looking after 2 kids - he wants to be no1 kid and our children are getting in the way so he is angry with them. Seems this isn't so unusual.

I am currently threatening my dh with divorce and this is helping him to look at his behaviour and is so freaked out he has readily agreed and arranged couselling for 'us' which I feel may well turn into counselling for him.

Read 'raising boys' by steve bidulf, interesting stuff on boys whose fathers don't bond with them and how they have trouble becoming men, some of this would freak your dh - good if he could read it . He also talks about fathers who behave like a kid and how bad this is.

Important for kids that you are as calm and predictable as poss. Sounds like you are doing a great job.

Aw MrsA. I'm really sad about the glasses thing. It's interesting you say he knows about your eyesight as his is the same. I think my dh is extra hard on ds1 because they're so similar. My dad was hard on me because we're similar.

Do you think they can despise traits in themselves and overreact when they see those traits in their kids?

My dad used to hit my mum too. I would jump at him and scream at him. It was terrifying! He just used to pick me up and throw me out of the way. He was unaproachable and would explode over nothing. One day my dad was looking for his slippers, mum was at work. She moved them about 10 inches from their normal spot. He couldnt find them and lost it completely. He broke the tv by pushing it over! It was just me and him in the house. My mum was to scared of him to stand up to him all the time.
My dad never actually hit me but he still scared me. Its horrible for a child to grow up in this environment. And being tired, or having a rough childhood is a real shit excuse!!