To think if a boy hits my daughter then yes it is different to if a girl does

[ouchthathurtsabit]

Preparing to be flamed as this is a controversial issue.

I'm a mum of a girl and 2 boys. My daughter came home with a red mark on her face saying that a boy- known for hurting others- had punched her in the face because she had gone in front of him in the queue. The boy was spoken to and it was dealt with. The children are 8 and in year 3.

So I spoke to the teacher and said I was glad it was dealt with and that I was sure my daughter would be fine but it would probably be helpful for this boy to know that it's unacceptable to hurt or hit anyone but that hitting a girl in the face is really not acceptable.

The teacher then had a massive rant at me saying that there is absolutely no difference and that's a very dangerous thing to be teaching children and it would not be an appropriate thing to say in school.

Whist I do understand what she was tryouts g to say, I do try and explain to my boys that In our society, no matter what age you are, if you hit a female then it is completely unacceptable and that no matter what a girl does or says to you then if you respond with physical violence then it's not acceptable. Males are generally bigger and stronger. Am I completely wrong in thinking at 8 years old this could be mentioned? Because I don't know! I know if one of my boys hit a girl in the face I would be a tiny bit more mortified than if it was a girl

There's definitely a power in balance between girls and boys of that age and younger. Boys and girls are treated differently from birth (well established by studies) and by school boys are definitely more entitled and treat girls as lesser. Girls band together in groups for protection precisely because of this, because they are taught that men pose a risk and they must appease them or risk violence. (Carol Gilligan and Lynn Mykail Browns work on how girls 'loose voice' to remain part of a girl group is a brilliant read). Of course some individual girls will have power over an individual boy but as a class males oppress females and this is well established early on. And boys know this. They know the likely hood of getting hit back by a girl is much lower than by a boy, so it is choosing to pick on a 'weaker' victim even if physically the same socialisation has meant girls are much less likely to fight back, especially against a boy. So yes a boy targeting a weaker victim needs addressing and the culture than entrenches these attitudes needs challenging by the teachers.

But a violent response to being attacked by someone equal or larger than you IS different to being the instigator of violence or responding to violence from someone to whom you are much stronger and larger.

1. there is no evidence to show that the boys/girls in question in the case are any different in size. Boys and girls before puberty have the same muscle mass.
2. domextic violence isn't only about the physical, it is also about emotional and mental abuse. According to your logic if a woman is taller/larger than her dh and he hits her it is less important somehow.
3. My ds is going to be bigger and stronger than most of the rest of the population once he has finishes growing. (14 and 6 feet tall with size 13 feet, my family are 6'4'' 6'5'' etc) It is incredibly importnat for him to learn that he must find ways of expressing his anger which NEVER involve violence.

My point is not that we ever belittle the violence towards women, but that to suggest violence against one person is worse than against another is not right.

NoMoreNotToday

Brilliant post! We may all agree that violence is bad, no matter where it comes from but what we have to acknowledge is that we live in a world where disproportionately violence is from males towards females and other males. That us simply the statistical fact of the matter. We must not use equality to diminish this fact.

Boys are more entitled and treat girls as lesser by school age? What utter bullshit. I don't even know where to start with that one

OP, YANBU.

It is just NOT the same, no matter how much we may wish it, that male on female violence is the same as female on male violence. In ANY respect.

It doesn't matter that an 8 year old boy may not be stronger than an 8 year old girl. When his testosterone takes effect, he will become in effect a potentially lethal weapon. That's what men are. They need to understand that and take responsibility.

There have been some great posts on this thread but I don't think someone has brought up this particular issue: that for some men, in some cultures, low level violence is actually a form of jostling and communication that is quite acceptable. Women should NEVER be subjected to this, even in the form of "play fighting", because they CANNOT compete.

You can huff and puff all you like and say you don't LIKE that men use violence like this amongst themselves. But they do. And they need to know from a very young age that they can't treat females like that.

I've been pushed around by men and absolutely floored by it, because they forgot they weren't dealing with someone strong enough to take it. It's intimidating and humiliating. They should absolutely not do it.

I am 100% with the teacher. What bullshit is this - that it is never okay to hit girls in particular? Actually, its not acceptable to hit anyone irrespective of their sex. Girls / women are not a special case - this implies that it might be acceptable in some cases to hit another boy / man.... and as it happens young men are more likely than women to be subject to violence

(I have a dd and as ds fwiw)

streetface I think we are coming from quite different perspectives on this.

You said "a bully will only understand one type of response".

That's not my experience, there are a variety of ways of effectively dealing with bullying. It's not punch back or nothing.

It you start with "punch back" as the lesson for your DC at what point to you start to teach them it's no longer acceptable? Because it's not an acceptable response in adult life.

as it happens young men are more likely than women to be subject to violence

And who is inflicting the majority of this violence on men? Hint; it's not women.

Just a thought, but why wasn't your daughter spoken to for pushing in? Are you not teaching her manners?

I am with the teacher, but your daughter should have been hooked out of the queue and put at the back!

I am more than aware that it is predominantly men who are responsible for violence - I don't see the relevance of your point in response to mine

To reiterate I don't think boys (or girls) should be taught that it is never okay (or somehow worse) to hit girls. They should be taught that it never okay to hit anyone.

They should be taught that it never okay to hit anyone.

So you basically agree with everyone else on this thread then?

And who is inflicting the majority of this violence on men? Hint; it's not women.

no it is men who have never learnt that violence is not acceptable in any circumstances. Maybe even men who were brought up that it is never OK to hit a woman, but don't worry about hitting another boy/man.

Your post seems to say that as long as the violence is men on men that is OK.
No it isn't. I don't want my ds or my dh being victim to uncontrolled violence, any more than I want me or dds to be the victim of it.

I don't want ds to be the perpetrator either

Benlui no of course that's not the only response to a bully. I'm being a little simplistic because I'm online and typing quickly and that wasn't the main point. The point was more about some violence being more understandable.
So in adult life, if someone decides to go up and wallop someone, the immediate response is more likely to be they will receive a wallop back.
If I am assaulted, my first response would be to fight back. Police would be useless in 99% of cases and even if they weren't, the justice system won't back them up.
But that is going too far off the point.
If my children, of either sex are actually punched then I have no issue with them punching back. In my experience, the children who do not react in a physically defensive way end up as repeat victims.

There is no doubt men are more likely to commit violent crime, but men are also more likely to be the victims of unwarranted violent crime (by men), so the message must always be zero tolerance of any violence to anyone, giving out the message you must not hit girls does imply hitting a boy is more acceptable.

Your post seems to say that as long as the violence is men on men that is OK.

Please direct me to the post where I said that it's okay for men to hit other men.

The teacher is ofcourse correct. However, my daughter would get a complete bollocking for hitting anyone. This bollocking includes speeches about the unintended consequences of violence such as someone hits their head on the ground and dies, how you might get back worse than you give etc and not to pick on weaker people. My son would get the same lecture plus a rant about male to female violence. I do know that female to make violence is an under reported crime. In your instance op I'd make sure his mum knew.

And whilst you're on it, could you please direct me to all these posts that state that it's fine for a girl/woman to hit a boy/man?

I'm really struggling to understand some of the responses on here. Not one person has said they support male on male violence.

I do agree with AntiGrinch that for some men, low level jostling is a form of recreation and communication in a way that it rarely is for women.

For instance, DH enjoys boxing training and has done for years because it helps him relax. Sometimes they do sparing (not to the face though). There are a few women who train in the same gym. Would he go in the ring with one of them, even if their boxing skills were superior to his. No he would not for obvious reasons. Even if he was the same height or weight, that has nothing to do with it. Women are physically different and he is obviously aware of this.

It's the same reason schools don't run mixed rugby teams or whatever.

Perhaps I could give another example. I'm in a pub, another woman keeps bumping into me, spilling her drink all over me and when I politely ask her stop she calls me a dog. I slap her and pull her hair. (This is not how I'd react btw I'm playing devils advocate) I could have walked away, but I chose to create a violent situation and the woman ends up hurt.

I get home, I ask my 5 year old to put her shoes on. She says 'no, I hate you' I slap her round the face and pull her hair.

Are you saying slapping the child is just as bad as the hitting the woman? Surely not?

Am we saying that by condemning the child abuse in stronger terms that the attack in the pub we are actually saying it's ok to slap women in the pub for spilling drinks on others?

Like PP says the two are not mutually exclusive. Am I the only one who can see the madness in this?

'Are we saying'

No it is not different to if a girl hits your daughter. Hitting is wrong full stop.

I also wonder how OP worded this if the teacher started to rant. I rarely see teachers rant at parents

Not one person has said they support male on male violence

Of course not, but the point is that language matters, if you say "don't hit 'cos she's a girl" the qualifier is heard she's a girl, and the don't hit message is lost. So rather than a consistent single easy to understand message that hitting is wrong, there's an idea that hitting someone you percieve to be an equal is acceptable.

That is what breeds violence - and because people who turn to violence in one situation will often do it in another, partly because alternative strategies don't need to be learnt.

Madgemak youre crackers! Benlui yes I agree with you to an extent. It really depends on circumstance. But like you say, we condemn certain violence in stronger terms. That doesn't in any way equate to accepting violence in other circumstances or saying it is acceptable. My example of self defence might be a bit of a red herring but it was just to point out that some violence is condemned in stronger terms for a reason.

I will never accept child abuse is the same as a fight between adults in a pub. Really!!??