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To think if a boy hits my daughter then yes it is different to if a girl does

873 replies

ouchthathurtsabit · 08/09/2017 11:44

Preparing to be flamed as this is a controversial issue.

I'm a mum of a girl and 2 boys. My daughter came home with a red mark on her face saying that a boy- known for hurting others- had punched her in the face because she had gone in front of him in the queue. The boy was spoken to and it was dealt with. The children are 8 and in year 3.

So I spoke to the teacher and said I was glad it was dealt with and that I was sure my daughter would be fine but it would probably be helpful for this boy to know that it's unacceptable to hurt or hit anyone but that hitting a girl in the face is really not acceptable.

The teacher then had a massive rant at me saying that there is absolutely no difference and that's a very dangerous thing to be teaching children and it would not be an appropriate thing to say in school.

Whist I do understand what she was tryouts g to say, I do try and explain to my boys that In our society, no matter what age you are, if you hit a female then it is completely unacceptable and that no matter what a girl does or says to you then if you respond with physical violence then it's not acceptable. Males are generally bigger and stronger. Am I completely wrong in thinking at 8 years old this could be mentioned? Because I don't know! I know if one of my boys hit a girl in the face I would be a tiny bit more mortified than if it was a girl
Confused

OP posts:
hmcAsWas · 08/09/2017 18:49

If you are agreeing that violence against girls and women is worse then you are (unintentionally) excusing violence against boys /men in some circumstances - as evidently from your perspective it as not as serious. Why else make a distinction.

Spottylu · 08/09/2017 18:54

Agree with the teacher. Violence is equally unacceptable from a boy as from a girl. But also, I think it sends a bad message to somehow imply or say a boy hitting is worse than a girl. It just justifies the view that women are not equal to men.

khajiit13 · 08/09/2017 18:54

Teacher is absolutely right. Tbh I think your perspective is sexist and just fuels the stereotype that woman are weaker and delicate. This just strengthens the imbalance. The sooner we're seen as equals and that is not okay to hit anyone, ever, the better.

ouchthathurtsabit · 08/09/2017 19:06

Neither act is wrong

Wow... Both are wrong! Two wrongs don't make a right! Turn the other cheek and all that.

Oops sorry I did mean neither is right BlushBlush

OP posts:
Ttbb · 08/09/2017 19:09

There is no further deference during childhood. The reason why it is more offensive for a man to hit a woman that for a woman to hit a woman is because of the power imbalance. Most women cannot defend themselves from a man if he wants to hurt them. In that sense men have power over women because they are bigger and stronger. Any abuse of power is offensive. Children are similar in size and strength. Obviously these are sweeping generalisations. Any comment on men vs women is a massive generalisation. The heart of the generalisation however does ring true. It is worse to hit someone weaker than you than someone who can defend themselves.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 08/09/2017 19:15

It is worse to hit someone weaker than you than someone who can defend themselves.

It's wrong to hit anyone. Full stop.

NoMoreNotToday · 08/09/2017 19:30

No one has said it is worse for a boy to hit a girl or that it's 'less worse' to hit a boy or said that female violence is ok in any sense.

What's been said is that there is a power imbalance between boys and girls. This is why we have 'gender' in the first place, or sex role stereotypes, which is a hiarchy males use to oppress females by using our biology against us.

There is decades worth, if not more, of sociological studies on this and unlimited amount of proof for anyone who bothers to seek it out. Gender studies, used to be women's studies, is a university level subject precisely because of this. Part of our socialisation is mysogyny in women also and many are blind to the reality (I know I was when I was younger, despite university level study on it). This isn't a new or out there concept, and while many ignore it it doesn't make it less real or concrete.

Female to male violence, or female on female violence is every bit abhorant but it isn't entrenched in our system (seen world wide) of class oppression meaning males are allways the dominant class. Class oppression is quite different from personal oppression and understanding the difference and how they effect us, the latter psychological and the former effects how we are socialsed. Male pattern violence is termed that because of how much more common it is for males to be the ones being violent, and for women to be vulnerable to it because of being victimised because of our biology. That term is not used for no reason. That doesn't in anyway dismiss the reality of female violence. The sociologists call it this because societies teach males it's ok to dominate and use women, and to use their increased strength and our vulnerbility to pregnancy against us. That's why rape culture is talked about as being a male thing also. No one is saying that women never attack men or other women, what's meant is that it's a social norm for men to claim women are asking for it, to victim blame, to justify preying on vulnerable women, to cheer on males who are targeting drunk girls or laugh at rape jokes. On the other hand it's not social norms for women to laugh about sexually assaulting men, to aim for the drunkest guy on a night out to have sex with him, or to take part in predatory behaviour like Woolf whistling, ass slapping, sexualized comments, or using (our non existent class power) to get men to sleep with us to get promotions. Of course the odd women may partake in these behaviors and use personal power in that way but that's not the social norms and the social norms of women being socialised into being more nurturing, caring, putting ourselves last, giving way to what men want, appeasing men to avoid their aggression and so on don't lead to those odd women being violent to men or other women. Male rape culture, male socialised norms, absolutely lead to male pattern violence and that's the difference, that's what needs challenging in these situations.

The not all men or women do it too arguments drive me crazy because looking at socialogical patterns doesn't dismiss these facts but it does look at why males much more commonly prey on women than the other way round. It especially bugs me as I was sexually abused by woman as well as men as a child and I strongly resent my reality (that women can be predators too) being used in a way that completely ignores my reality because female offending tends to follow selective patterns and is something that happens despite social norms and our socialisation, where as male violence to women happens because of social norms and male socialisation. It's this socialisation that needs challenged in these situations.

Like I said a couple of times I'm not sold the best way to do this is to say to this boy don't hit but especially not girls but I do think the school need to address this. Socialastion begins at birth (again numerous studies done on this) and none of us are immune from it which is why we often can notice it in front of us (I was most definitely guilty of this for along time, it's pretty normal) and this boy like most will know the likely hood is this boy knew that a girl was less likely to hit back as all boys do.

I actually have my own little sociological 'experiment' on this in our home, twin DS &DD both struggling with low frustration tolerance, anxiety, social problems, anger problems, impulse control problems and so on. (Asd &adhd). As much as possible I have raised them trying to be aware of how I communicate sex role stereotypes to them, as is dh who does a much larger share of the 'wife work' than me, and is a respectful gentle man. Yet my naturally gentle and sweet ds has lashed out in ways DD never has. He also has gotten alot more help and recognition for his difficulties than DD despite her being much more severely (my area of work so I know first hand) yet she still doesn't act violently to others. Women for the most part pose risk to themselves due to our socialastion and men towards others (part of why women are ignored by my system, take up much lower % of funds or secure beds etc even though they attempt suicide three times more than men -its put down to attension seeking when it does not work- and have similar rates of serious mh problem like schizophrenia to males).

We live in a country that victim blames, that teaches women how not to get raped, when we need to be teaching males, starting with boys, not to be rapists, not to see women as objects, to understand and find a way to move past their socialastion and to take responsibility for a culture that causes male violence. This should absolutely start young.

NoMoreNotToday · 08/09/2017 19:38

Oh and misshelena there is alot of research that indicates that women are given much harsher sentences for violent acts than men are. And violent women are given a harder time in the media also. As are women who do things 'typical' of men like not being the resident parent of their children for example.

Walkingdead11 · 08/09/2017 19:57

Generally girls are weaker than boys....but that's just physiology, doesn't mean they are inferior. What matters is that in this scenario where a boy DID hit a girl it was a good opportunity to distill some knowledge and facts about why violence towards women from men is an issue, because it is and those seeking to make this about equality are simply not getting it.........it IS worse for a male to hit a female because usually males are bigger and stronger than females and we do not yet have equality in society. This is evident in the number of domestic violence stats, rape, sexual assault/harassment, objectification of women to name but a few.

AntiGrinch · 08/09/2017 20:09

NoMoreNotToday - thanks for making this valiant effort.

I am absolutely staggered that people seem to be unable to manage the concept of varying degrees of wrong. It isn't ok to pinch bums without consent, but do you believe that convicted bum-pinchers should get the same sentence as convicted rapists? I don't. But does this make you want to scream at me YOU ARE SAYING THAT BUM-PINCHING WITHOUT CONSENT IS FINE!?!?!?!?

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 08/09/2017 20:12

I am absolutely staggered that people seem to be unable to manage the concept of varying degrees of wrong

I'm staggered that people can't manage the concept that hitting is wrong full stop.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 08/09/2017 20:18

it IS worse for a male to hit a female because usually males are bigger and stronger than females and we do not yet have equality in society

It is this kind of reasoning that lead my family member not to report the abuse he went through for years and nearly killed him.

Walkingdead11 · 08/09/2017 20:19

PigletWasPoohsFriend

Please read NoMoreNotTodays post, you just might learn something 🙄

Walkingdead11 · 08/09/2017 20:22

For the love of god!!!! Yes, there is female lead domestic abuse but the reality is that there is much more male on female. What happened to your family member was horrific, no doubt about it but we live in a society where males abuse women to a diabolical degree.

certainlynotsusan · 08/09/2017 20:23

I'm kinda with pigletwaspoohsfriend. Hitting is wrong. Full stop.

And I have read the cited post.

Hitting is wrong. Full stop.

FerretsAreFeminists · 08/09/2017 20:26

It is this kind of reasoning that lead my family member not to report the abuse he went through for years and nearly killed him.

But women are no more likely to report being abused by their partner than men are. Their reasons for not reporting tend to be different; men don't report because they fear being ridiculed and women don't report because they fear being killed but the idea that men are less likely to report is a total myth.

Louiselouie0890 · 08/09/2017 20:31

The teacher was right. I also think teaching them that you don't hit a girl under any circumstances is ridiculous and can lead to a man being in an abusive relationship. It happens both ways!

FerretsAreFeminists · 08/09/2017 20:33

can lead to a man being in an abusive relationship

HTF does telling a boy he shouldn't hit a girl result in him being in an abusive relationship?

NoMoreNotToday · 08/09/2017 20:44

Thank you walking and anti.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 08/09/2017 20:45

Please read NoMoreNotTodays post, you just might learn something 🙄

How about your not quite so patronising Hmm

asdad · 08/09/2017 20:48

What is worse...An 8 year old boy punching a girl or a boy?

Was the parent or the teacher in the wrong?

Er.......

I think.....

Teachers and Police mop up after violence. They cant prevent it.

Parents of victims can send them to kickboxing lessons so that they can at least defend themselves.

NoMoreNotToday · 08/09/2017 20:59

And with regards to varying degrees of wrong- it's wrong for a girl or boy to hit anyone, but if the reasoning behind it was that they attacked a disabled person because they are disabled then it needs another conversation because of the prejudice involved. Same as if the kid attack a poc, Muslim child, or polish kid because of their nationality or religon then again this needs addressed. The conversation isn't just don't hit and left at that. Same goes if a kid is targeted because of their sexuality. These are pretty characteristics under law, as is sex. Maybe this boy just exploded and would have done at anyone (teacher, bigger boy etc) but it's just as likely that he knew that a girl wouldn't hit back so she's an easy target for him to take his frustration out on. That doesn't make it 'more wrong' but it needs another conversation past don't hit anyone.

Replace sex with anyone of the other protected characteristics above and the assault, if motivated even in part by those characteristics, make it a hate crime. When men target women because of our sex that sure as fuck should be considered a hate crime also, and any precursor to this, however 'mild' it appears needs dealt with also.

NoMoreNotToday · 08/09/2017 21:02

Asdad that would be victim blaming. It's not a crime victims job to not get attacked. It's a parents job, and schools and societies, to teach perpetrators not to attack others. And I say that as a mum with a violent ds, who struggles with this much more because of his disabilities, but still I need to teach him ways to cope that don't take his anger out on others. Same as I'm stuck teaching my daughter ways of not taking her anger out on herself.

ouchthathurtsabit · 08/09/2017 21:06

No more not today thanks for that.

OP posts:
NoMoreNotToday · 08/09/2017 21:14

(I know I'm long winded)

There also seems to be a misunderstanding of the term equality. It isn't used to mean 'the same', it means of equal value (which women already are, but aren't treated as such) and deserving of equal opportunities. Enabling people to access equal opportunities often means treating them differently as people have different needs. We already know women are under represented in stem subjects and so we offer extra scholarships to address this in balance that's considered to occur because of prejudice and discrimination against women and our different socialisation negatively effecting us from putting ourselves forward in these areas. Equality in practice means recognising the ways we are different and putting different supports in place to meet this needs. That means recognising that females are physically weaker and that males are socialsed to be more predatory, and therefore putting in place adaquate protections and putting more time into teaching males not to prey on us is equality in practice. The exact same way we have reasonable adjustments for disabled people (I am disabled as are both my dc) and positive discrimination is used to help those disadvantaged by discrimination against them.

In no way does the concept of equality in law mean treating everyone the same or expecting them to be the same. Protected characteristics are protected because we recognise that some groups are at greater risk and need extra protections to afford them the privilege that non protected groups (or group- white,straight non disabled males) get given to them from birth.

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