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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think we no longer live in a Christian country

926 replies

orlantina · 04/09/2017 21:41

More than 53% of people have no faith - according to a recent survey.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41150792

That figure changes to 71% amongst 18-25 yr olds.

It surveyed 3000 adults - so it would be interesting to look behind the stats but it seems that more than half the country have no religion.

Christianity is still probably the most common religion out there.

Should this have implications for areas of national life?

OP posts:
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bluedemilune · 10/09/2017 21:12

yes of course, look at the british adherence to queuing rules compared to other european or world countries. that people stand in a line, dont push in, take it in turns, thats strong social conditioning on people from all walks of life even people new to the country very quickly observe these rules when they see others following.

im a muslim, not a christian, so i dont have a horse in this race. but look at what Jesus stood for and then what these so called 'proud' christians eg trump, may, blair, bush et al enact on this country's poor and then on the rest of the worlds poor.

pointythings · 10/09/2017 21:13

would you pay into the welfare state if it wasnt the government collecting money from ones wages?
Absolutely yes. I have a good job and a good life. I would see it as my duty to give people less fortunate a hand up.
would you stick to the speed limit if there speed cameras on every street corner?
Yes, because those limits are there for road safety reasons.
would you pay your direct debits on time if your history wasnt being recorded to pass onto anyone who you want to borrow from?
Yes, because if you enter into a contract with someone it is dishonourable to not meet your obligations.

All the modern ways the state has to monitor and punish its citizen's behaviour means we no longer need the control parts of religion

You have a very jaded view of humanity. You seem to believe we would all descend into savagery and the world would end up like Lord of the Flies without religion or state control. A very negative world view.

CardinalSin · 10/09/2017 21:49

"In such moral and societal codes, there is no need to take care of the sick, the dying, the hungry, the elderly."

And yet, they did! Imagine that! Without the Abrahamic God to tell them!

"kind of like our anglo saxon neighbours across the water in their true secular society."

Well, if you look at our Scandinavian neighbours across the water, with their considerably more secular societies, I think you'll find they take a hell of a lot more care of the "sick, the dying, the hungry, the elderly" than our "Christian" society does. You've rather just argued against yourself...

pointythings · 10/09/2017 21:55

Describing the US as a secular society is just all kinds of wrong. It isn't. It just make s poor pretense of it.

bluedemilune · 10/09/2017 22:11

no actually OP, its that we've only climbed off the ladder of religion when the state become technologically advanced and rich enough to take over the role of the All Seeing God in controlling peoples behaviour. more freedom for the individual ostensibly but a heck of alot more expensive on a country's balance sheet than a simple heaven if your good hell if your not good.

and who is jaded? the UK is the most spied on nation on earth, thats how our government works to ensure our cooperation its not a Big God but Big Brother thats constantly watching. the state does not leave it to chance and we have become so inured to that its just 'meh'. it papers over the fact we are a low trust society. 'watched people are good people'.communist states and totalitarian countries where theres three secret police for every citizen also follow that same rule.

As to the scandinavians, they climbed off the ladder of religion at a higher rung than us to where such things just became inculcated cardinal. and rampant capitalism isnt threatening to overwhelm them as it does over the US and UK populations. you think its just religion holding us back from the near utopi-ish scandinavian societies when actually, they have much more solidarity and that overcomes the selfish individualism that the Tory party/Republican party would have us living by.

"Organised religion is no longer about faith. It is about control. Early in their developments they tend to be about personal contemplation and prayer and community."

personal contemplation and prayer are personal, community is social. if a religion has binding rules on altruism and solidarity amongst its members, all for one one for all, co religionists are as brothers and sisters etc. then it also needs rules on behaviour in order that no one individual strains the 'brotherhood' too much. the social capital amongst members of the same faith, where they trust, cooperate etc with each other to high degrees is based on shared sacrifice. that can be adherence to often strict rules that may look nonsensical to outsiders but such elaborate religious rituals, eg no tv amongst the amish, are to weed out fraudsters and the insincere.

religions such as islam were sought out by the poor, the unconnected, the ones with low social capital, for its social welfare system and also for the increased altruism seen amongst its members for one another. but its high trust networks, lending/borrowing without interest, needed and still needs intrinsic and extrinsic bonds to tie that. collective liability needs its members to be stable, regular, sober, and industrious, that they do not strain the ties of solidarity - that are always meant to be there - overmuch.

he early trade unionists with their rules on teetotalism for their members and working class solidarity were also about that. otherwise you have a situation like with the overstrained welfare state or the NHS.

pointythings · 10/09/2017 22:16

co religionists are as brothers and sisters etc

This is the problem with religion - they are generally not so hot on being decent to people who are not co-religionists. Whereas us secularists mostly are because we are all, you know, human.

bluedemilune · 10/09/2017 22:21

well if you can see how a so called secular society like the US can make a poor pretense of it then hopefully you can see a so called christian society can be anything but that too.

school results in the far east are far greater than in the uk. social mobility of the children of taxi drivers and cleaners much greater there than the children of doctors here in old blighty. that sense of solidarity and communalism, in south korea, taiwan, china, japan, singapore, has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with culture. theyre the ultimate shame based societies which is much stronger at enforcing conformational behaviour. largely atheist, their culture, and tradition are powerful effects on society and help them to success. christianity is the most individualistic of the world faiths but its still far more communal than the value system the great and powerful espouse.

bluedemilune · 10/09/2017 22:28

"This is the problem with religion - they are generally not so hot on being decent to people who are not co-religionists. Whereas us secularists mostly are because we are all, you know, human."

you mean parochial altruism? like how some of the christians posting on this thread were trying to stoke up 'the muslims are coming' to bolster their fading influence on public life in the UK? yeah course i know that, you can tell the right wingers from the progressives with that. the former use that tactic the world over to win support for their side its not just religion, many secularists do too. calling on tribalism, nationalism, racism, etc, thats a human failing. when you've got no other argument and nothing else going for you then stoke fear and anger at the 'other' to keep power.

orlantina · 10/09/2017 22:29

bluedemilune

Do you think the Church of England should be the established church?

Do you think that ALL State schools should, by law, have to have an act of collective daily worship?

Do you think that it would be far better for the Church of England if it wasn't so closely linked to the State so it could help spread the message of Jesus?

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CardinalSin · 10/09/2017 22:46

It's very hard to argue with bluedemilune, she makes up her own facts.

bluedemilune · 10/09/2017 22:46

orlantina, why should i have a problem with any of that its a christian country? muslims always get dragged into these culture wars between atheists/secularists and christians. please don't say anything on our behalf whether its winterval or easter eggs to chocolate eggs, its not from our quarter that the push against christianity is coming. and some of it is their own fault, and yeah i have my own beef with the religion of the white male god and his white male son - buuttttt thats an argument behind closed doors.

pointythings · 10/09/2017 22:57

Cardinal she does rather. It's difficult to argue with batshit crazy. I mean, this insistence that the US is a secular society - WTAF??

As far as I am concerned the whole point of atheism is that there is no other. There's just people. Not a popular point of view, I know.

bluedemilune · 10/09/2017 22:59

no cardinal, i can back up everything i say, i just read different books than you is all. that religion is a tool of social control isnt such a big nasty concept to a muslim as we do not have a priest class, there is no religious hierarchy, no history of tithes from the poor to the rich, etc. my ancestors converted to islam as a bid for an early form of respectability politics, they accepted that the collective responsibility of their new religion meant careful group monitoring and control of personal behaviour. and that flows down to today.

"Respectability politics or the politics of respectability refers to attempts by marginalized groups to police their own members and show their social values as being continuous, and compatible, with mainstream values rather than challenging the mainstream for what they see as its failure to accept difference." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respectability_politics

its more empowering than complaining about discrimination ya di ya di ya. in my day to day life its why i feel i can tell a group of young muslim lads horsing around off on the bus because its better coming from me than the bus driver or the police man.

CardinalSin · 10/09/2017 23:02

I'm sorry, but "As to the scandinavians, they climbed off the ladder of religion at a higher rung than us" is frankly bullshit!

bluedemilune · 10/09/2017 23:06

see how often 'well the US is a secular society' is used to placate the christians on this thread that disestablishment wont mean the country is going to hell in a handbasket. im certainly not the first person to make this point here pointy thats quite lazy of you.of all the things to point out about me being batshit crazy you chose that? our country with an established religion and church does more for the poor and the sick than a country that is secular like the US. if people make a point of sandinanvian secularism being a beacon for separation between religion and state why cant i mention american secularism?

bluedemilune · 10/09/2017 23:15

seriously cardinal, just different books. i read this secularismandnonreligion.org/articles/10.5334/snr.an/ and my eyes opened, its a fantastic book and God WIlling, Wink youll have a look at it one day. "Big Gods, How religion transformed cooperation and Conflict". great look at religion from the outside, the work of a very fine, and also atheist, mind.

user1497863568 · 10/09/2017 23:18

They've knocking off and killing millions of us before the arrival of Muslim immigrants. Using pretty much the same tactics, calling us terrorists etc. Leaving our parents/ancestors afraid to speak their languages/publicise their cultures etc. One thing I've noticed which we have in common is that we all seem to be the 'darker' sort of European. We are ruled by criminal control freaks.

bluedemilune · 10/09/2017 23:22

www.newscientist.com/article/mg21929361-300-no-need-for-gods-any-more/

and this review has abit more of a tantalising title for atheists, was originally entitled 'Goodbye Gods', its about the same book. hope thats of benefit.

pointythings · 11/09/2017 07:38

Your definition of 'secular' really needs work. The US is not a secular country. Not having a state established faith does not make a country secular. The US is deeply and scarily Christian. I am frankly amazed at your refusal to see that, blue.

bluedemilune · 11/09/2017 08:00

www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/sep/11/eat-pray-live-lagos-nigeria-megachurches-redemption-camp

"Redemption Camp has 5,000 houses, roads, rubbish collection, police, supermarkets, banks, a fun fair, a post office – even a 25 megawatt power plant. In Nigeria, the line between church and city is rapidly vanishing"

super enhanced cooperation between these co religionists here - christians - can organise and accomplish what their government cannot achieve by mutual trust and commitment. housing, consistent electricity, schooling, commerce.

orlantina · 11/09/2017 08:20

why should i have a problem with any of that its a christian country

THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD.

Most people in the UK are NOT CHRISTIANS.

Personally I think the Church of England would be much better of it lost its links to the State and people found faith themselves rather than have faith forced on them as 'the norm'. Then it could challenge the Government.

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orlantina · 11/09/2017 08:23

our country with an established religion and church does more for the poor and the sick than a country that is secular like the US

Most countries don't have an established religion.

The US is one of those countries with no link between Church and State but is very religious but seemingly its leaders, who claim to be Christian, seem more obsessed with morals than doing good for others

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orlantina · 11/09/2017 08:27

super enhanced cooperation between these co religionists here - christians - can organise and accomplish what their government cannot achieve by mutual trust and commitment. housing, consistent electricity, schooling, commerce

Indeed. Christians doing good for others. It's a great thing.
Then you have the same Christians controlling behaviour and judging people who fall 'below that behaviour' and moral standards.

So OTOH, you have people doing good for others. Then you have the same people telling their believers how to behave and that people who don't behave as they say are sinners and will burn in hell.

Go figure.

God seems to be a control freak. Do as I say, be good, help others and if you do that, you'll go to Heaven for eternal life. But if you sin, you'll burn in Hell for eternity.

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woodhill · 11/09/2017 08:39

No one in public office is saying this in all honesty

orlantina · 11/09/2017 08:41

No one in public office is saying this in all honesty

I'm thinking of religious leaders and preachers in other countries. We've moved past that.

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