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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think we no longer live in a Christian country

926 replies

orlantina · 04/09/2017 21:41

More than 53% of people have no faith - according to a recent survey.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41150792

That figure changes to 71% amongst 18-25 yr olds.

It surveyed 3000 adults - so it would be interesting to look behind the stats but it seems that more than half the country have no religion.

Christianity is still probably the most common religion out there.

Should this have implications for areas of national life?

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Cailleach666 · 09/09/2017 16:57

It's interesting that many christians are happy to dismiss the old testaments and yet still cling to the 10 commandments.

Is that one of the fluffy bits that is worth keeping?

Even though four and the first four are all about god and his petty pouting?

derxa · 09/09/2017 17:04

Turn the other cheek.

Fresh8008 · 09/09/2017 17:09

I see the ten commandments being mentioned. How do you pick which of the different versions to devote your life to?

a) The Catholic list in Deuteronomy 5
b) The Jewish list in Exodus 20
c) The Muslim list in the Qur'an
d) The Protestant list in Exodus 20

Why didn't he put equality for women on that list?
Why didn't he put all genders and sexuality are equal? Why didn't he put don't abuse children, or no slavery. I mean he first three are all about himself, which make him seem very petty and jealous. He seems to have left out the important ones, 2000 years later the churches still dont seem to have realize that they have misunderstood what gods message was.

For a instruction list to life for people of all eras to live by it is useless. Why is god such a bad communicator.

Fresh8008 · 09/09/2017 17:11

And why did god break his own commandments. Seems like its "do as I say, not as I do" ... Quite tyrannical really.

toiletanger · 09/09/2017 17:23

I'd love to see what christians would do if they knew of the secret gospel of Mark

In that - Jesus actually partakes in a homosexual act

And I think it's considered fairly "historical" in the way that the bible is anyhow

Cailleach666 · 09/09/2017 17:35

And why did god break his own commandments.

Because he has the emotional maturity of a 2 year old.
Because he is a megalomaniac.
Because he has genocidal tendencies.
Because he is "wrathful" ( according to the bible) ie anger management problems.
Because he is "jealous" ( according to the bible) so narcissist and possible insecurity problems.
Because he is demanding , controlling, demands, love and obedience.
Because he thinks human sacrifice is OK. Asking others ( to show obedience) and manifesting himself as mortal and having the sacrifice of himself/ his son to save us all from the horrors of being human.
OK the scriptwriting is not open to analysis,

Christians claim to love him.

I wouldn't even be able to be polite to a guy like this.

Maskoff · 09/09/2017 17:58

I find most are spiritual like myself because it doesn't single out anyone for their beliefs race sexuality or gender

orlantina · 09/09/2017 18:30

Christians claim to love him

There seems to be a difference between the Abrahamic God and the 'Jesus's Dad,God"

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Fresh8008 · 09/09/2017 18:41

If I imagine god to be like an older relative on the other side of the world.
Who I have never met, seen or spoken to. I send them text messages occasionally but never get a reply. Now I can say that I love him but what does that really mean?

I just can't imagine actually experience/feeling real physical and emotional love for a person I have never met. Is it weird to think Christian's do this?

ErrolTheDragon · 09/09/2017 19:16

I'm sure I remember reading that a lot of the views now considered essential to Christianity weren't actually there from the start and have developed over time e.g. Early Christians didn't believe in a virgin birth or in the divinity of Jesus

Yes. Or at least, not actually God. My DH is a fan of 'Great Courses' dvd lecture series; one I watched with him was called something like 'How Jesus became God'.^ I wouldn't recommend it, most annoying lecturing style ever, but it was a very interesting historical analysis of how the 'divinity' of Jesus was ramped up over time. In the first few centuries AD, there were many different views, with what is now the mainstream standard dogma of the Trinity not being arrived at (with other stances therefore becoming heresies) until (iirc) the 4th century. Despite having been a Christian, I'd never realised this... its not the sort of thing most clergy like to point out, nor that the only^ verse in the bible which apparently supports it didn't appear in any manuscripts until the 9th century (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum). So much for the 'word of god' - amended to fit the dominant dogma.

ErrolTheDragon · 09/09/2017 19:18

Sorry, not sure how I managed to italicise a chunk of that rather than just the word 'only'

SchadenfreudePersonified · 10/09/2017 10:33

I'd love to see what christians would do if they knew of the secret gospel of Mark

In that - Jesus actually partakes in a homosexual act

Yes Toiletanger - I'm aware of this and TBH it doesn't bother me at all whether Jesus was straight, gay or bi. Sex is the least important thing, really, and yet people (and yes, that includes many Christians) make it into the biggest one. Our obsession with sex (devoid of love) is bewildering, and heartbreaking, because it leads to some much pain and outright cruelty.

That Jesus was unmarried in an era and a culture where most people married very early (from 13 onwards) had always interested me (though there have been suggestions that he was an Essene, a religious group who did not marry). If he was indeed homosexual, that might be an explanation, though personally I don't think it matters. FWIW I don't think that his was a Virgin Birth either - and I think the miracle of natural birth is so great it can't be topped by anything else - life, growing inside another life, and emerging into the world! What is more miraculous than that? (I do believe in the Resurrection.)

We have to remember that Jesus was a paradox - fully divine AND fully human - beyond our mortal understanding. I believe that like other men (and women) he had sexual feelings, and strong feelings of affection for his friends. As a man - a fully human man - this was inevitable.

However he was a man of his time - we are none of us uninfluenced by our upbringing - and as I read the Gospels I see him gradually coming to realise who he is (divinely) and what his task is (to make God's love known in the whole world). He starts off in his on community - with the Jews - and moves into the Gentile community as God reveals his mission to him - The Samaritan woman at the well, the Canaanite woman who asked him to heal her daughter - like all of us learning our job, he was taken a step at a time, with for his sake and for that of the people he was bringing God's message to. Had he stood up and said - "Women are as good as men; children should be protected, not exploited; same-sex relationships are as valid as any other" he would never have got past the starting line.

I think that the main thing a thread like this shows is how very complex the subject is, and how it is complicated by the beliefs and biases and prejudices we all have, as a result of our upbringing and our life experiences. It is far too complicated to be properly addressed on a forum like this one.

I think, as others have said, treating other people the way we would want to be treated is the key to harmony everywhere - but my word, it is HARD sometimes.

Actually - it is hard always.

ErrolTheDragon · 10/09/2017 10:38

We have to remember that Jesus was a paradox - fully divine AND fully human

We really don't Grin. This idea evolves over centuries.

CardinalSin · 10/09/2017 10:45

"beyond our mortal understanding"

The religious "Get Out Of Jail Free" card...

orlantina · 10/09/2017 10:50

to make God's love known in the whole world

Which God? The God of the Old Testament can hardly be described as a loving God...

If the Old Testament God was on AIBU,I think they'd be told they were being very unreasonable and just a little bit controlling.

As would some of the people who did things to please God..such as wanting to kill their son.

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ErrolTheDragon · 10/09/2017 10:56

Had he stood up and said - "Women are as good as men; children should be protected, not exploited; same-sex relationships are as valid as any other" he would never have got past the starting line.

Er, I thought you said he was fully divine... surely he could have done anything?

Cailleach666 · 10/09/2017 11:06

shaden Sex is the least important thing

Why is the church so hung up about sex then?

Seems to occupy a lot of the church's thinking. Whether it's sex outside marriage, abortion, contraception, sexual orientation.
Seems an obsession.

orlantina · 10/09/2017 11:21

Why is the church so hung up about sex then

That would be the Old Testament again...

Did Paul take what he liked about Jesus and then add some more things to 'Church doctrine'?

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orlantina · 10/09/2017 11:24

Did Paul take what he liked about Jesus

Or was it Peter?

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Fresh8008 · 10/09/2017 11:30

Schadenfreude Or any other fringe Christians, where do you get this information from. The church has spent 2000 years studying and interpreting the Bible and other texts, if you think they are wrong they they could be wrong about everything. Its impossible to believe in something that no one is able to agree what it actually is.

Over time people should come closer to the same answer, aka the truth, but it seems in religion over time everyone comes to a different answer and the conclusion is that it can't be true.

CardinalSin · 10/09/2017 11:42

Woodhill, that's a very biased account, combined with much woolly (and wishful) thinking.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 10/09/2017 11:50

Why is the church so hung up about sex then?

I wish I knew - in the grand scheme of things it is a way to procreate and to form and maintain a loving bond.
ut our entire society is obsessed with sex.

ErrolTheDragon · 10/09/2017 11:50

Peter and Paul. And some of the letters 'from Paul' are now understood to have been written someone else and attributed to him - e.g timothy is probably https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudepigrapha#Paulineepistles pseudephigraphical __ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FirstEpistletoo_Timothy . The practice of attributing writings to someone else was apparently quite standard practice at the time, so isn't exactly fraudulent - but why did god make his word misleading? He could surely have inspired the anonymous author to use his own name!Grin

ErrolTheDragon · 10/09/2017 11:52

Sorry, mangled the linking.

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