Reach your kids some fucking consideration! [ranty]

[someonestolemynick]

This has been inspired by the mummy who let her two charming kids scoot around Tesco. But it also goes out to the geniuses who keep their little darlings watch Peppa Pig on the bus or the pub. The parent who doesn't think it necessary to teach their kids that the appropriate response to bumping into another human is to apologise.
I have noticed this more and more: children (being children) act loud, entitled or aggressive and the accompanying adult smiles indulgently rather than correcting behaviour that infringes on others.

Ianbu

i don think you can judge.i think you gotta let the irritated bus come then go,DO NOT GET ON THE BUS.people get angry on this bus.where as you just got to sometimes let it pass.
there is so much intolerance.
what if it was the first time kid did this.not bad parenting.just a child being a nuisance.you know like a child. what if they got told or learnt now this wasn't right.
what cirucumstance do children behave like this.
do we no there home life.
do we no the parents or carers.
do we no anything
why judge
yeh be " ofg sake" but then get over it to some extent because otherwise we aren't going to offer kindness or help when someone might need it becsue we are simply pissed at them for getting in the way
there are sometimes wen you just know,you just know that the people are idiots but sometimes sometimes they are just people and children being human.

Nameychange No, definitely not a man

Really perplexed by your question tbh. I can't see what made you think that when I'm literally the only poster who has specifically stuck up for mothers ?!

Love the way several posters have latched exclusively onto the idea of 'stress' (which is may have mentioned in my posts) and totally, totally ignored the other points about how modern life is different from our childhoods.

No, 'stress' doesn't excuse poor parenting.

Any thoughts on the way children have moved more and more into visible public spaces, and the reasons for that? Any thoughts on why we appear to despise mothers and children so much?

I can't see what made you think that when I'm literally the only poster who has specifically stuck up for mothers ?!

I suspect it's your repeated narkiness that the conversation hasn't developed in the direction you wish it to. Which I agree can be frustrating,but hey, that's conversation.

For the record I don't disagree with about 50% of what you've said though I think your dismissiveness of how irritating the sound layer of electronic noise can be to some people in addition to other public noise, regardless of who the user is (my buses seem to have a lot of young adults who think we all want to listen to tinny noise and they don't need headphones) has been a bit supercilious and overblown in trying to attribute motives for people's dislike of it.

Nibled I like your account of the town meeting 40 years ago! Just goes to show each generation despairs of its delinquent youth!

Jassy Yes, I suspect it's that too. But I would have thought on MN we know that women can be narky too?!

Yes, I have been narky and frustrated on this thread! And it is partly because, as you say, I feel that the discussion hasn't developed as I thought it should... or, indeed, at all.

As you say, that's the nature of discussion. But I seem alone in being annoyed at these general criticisms being levelled at us !! I am a parent of this young generation, as are most of you. Yes, I agree that scooters in supermarkets are 100% inappropriate (not that I've ever seen it...) but I won't allow that to translate into 'the new generation is doomed'. There's a whole lot of othering going on, whereby posters seem to feel that if they complain vehemently about the fecklessness of other contemporary parents, they are somehow separate and better. Not so. We're all being lumped together.

I just feel it's wrong to level criticisms and not work at least a bit to defend them.

Merchant
You are starting to sound like a stuck record.

Not one person has said they despise all mother's and children.
No one has said children should be banned from public spaces.

We are pointing out the bleeding obvious that supermarkets, cafes and restaurants are not play parks. They are not places to be running around in nor riding scooters. Doing something that potentially or actually causes harm to others is not acceptable behaviour no matter who you are. I don't want some person carrying a tray of hot drinks to be barreled into causing them to spill it all over themselves or me. I don't want rammed into by some kid on a scooter while shopping. It's not that hard to understand.

I don't really care about why the parents can't realise thier kid is not entitled to hurt others or cause chaos in a shop. If more people called them out on it, if more shops clamped down on this they just might get the message.

And yes call out ignorant rude adults behaviour too. Nobody said adults were perfect either.

Willow

Thanks for that

The misogyny I'm referring to is deep, internalized, hidden - it's part of the fabric of our society.

Of course no one has said they hate mothers or children

I'm suggesting we examine our attitudes, our anger and our approach to children in public. That's all.

Of course, if people just want to keep stating different versions of 'the bleeding obvious' and regaling each other with yet another 'scooter-in-Tesco' scandal, well of course that is their prerogative!

Jassy has it! It's the fact you seem hellbent on defining the parameters of the discussion and taking umbrage that no-one is specifically responding to your brilliant opinion.

FWIW I noticed your first post and thought it was interesting, and there was a lot of truth in it. I have felt many times over the summer that children are not welcome in public places that they have every right to be in, particularly transport. It's as though unless they sit there in complete silence, they are a nuisance. I don't give them devices because I want them to be engaged with whats going on around them, and that means talking to them, playing ganes with them and for DD (3) looking at books together. I have no doubt some other adults were seething at my 'performance parenting'. But it's either that or give them a screen, because a 6 and 3 year old do not just sit silently on a train like adults do.

merchant
You seem be be pissed off that people have actual experiences of being knocked over or banged into by these kids on heelies or scooters. It doesn't fit with your agenda that we are all just misogynist killjoys stopping kids from being kids.

The thread was started by op being annoyed at personal experiences but you have continually tried to turn it around to your agenda.

And most posters have said the word 'parent' unless quoting a personal experience of a mother or a father being an entitled git regarding their child. Parents covers both mother's and fathers.

Nobody is saying all mother's are 'despised' which you yourself suggested.

The fact is that kids riding bikes or scooters in shops is becoming more prevalent and all your arguing that people are picking on kids and parents doesn't alter that.

Erm ok Nameyname I totally own up to be a bit rigid (or hellbent) on this thread. Yes.

But, try and see it from my point of view... You say you agreed with lots of my points. But I'd never have known, because neither you nor anyone else seemed to be taking issue with the onslaught of voices of doom.

It's odd. Normally, there is robust debate.

Not pissed off with people's experiences, Willow. Just frustrated that people think their experience translates into an incontrovertible fact about general trends.

I'll concede the scooter thing - they almost certainly are more common.

I won't concede that kids 'these days' have no manners/moral fibre.

But I'd never have known, because neither you nor anyone else seemed to be taking issue with the onslaught of voices of doom.

Because we seem to have read the thread in very different ways. I haven't seen the 'onslaught' as you have; the 'everything is worse than it used to be on a generational basis' has been a pretty minor one compared to discussions of the relative reasonableness of irritants, potential ways they could be avoided, and excoriation of the sort of parents who make the jobs of all other parents harder as well as making life less pleasant for others. These are the sort of parents whose children would have Even the OP didnt actually describe this as a generational decline - she said she was seeing it more and more, which is not quite the same thing.

Equally, not all childhoods of my generation (nearly 40) match the 'running free/wild' of yours. It certainly wasn't my experience (though I am an immigrant) or that of those of my friends who grew up in more urban places. Which means that the conclusions drawn by 'or childhoods are so different' are less relevant to some than to others whose experience matches yours.

I think it's a sort of quasi-moral outrage that a child is doing this, and that it involves new-fangled technology. The noise thing is a convenient way of being outraged.

You may think that, but you are wrong, Merchant. I get just as irritated with adults who play youtube or whatever on their phones on the bus without headphones.

It's about consideration. I don't yell the plot my books into random strangers' ears without their consent when I am travelling, and I expect others to behave with the same consideration.

Hi Merchant,
I read your initial post and you made some good points though I think you are trying to shift the goal posts of this conversation and then get pissed off when people don't engage the way you wish.

As I have stated, it's not so much kids these days but parents these days. Kids are being kids - they need to be taught how to act with consideraction to others. My point is that many parents allow them to act in a way that could endanger or annoy others.
A two year old doesn't know that a supermarket is not a safe place to scoot or that tinny videos will annoy others and are harder to block out than conversation.
Surely that's not such an outrageous suggestion that people (including children) using public places exercise a little thought. "I want to watch a video but I might disturb others so I will watch it with headphones on." "If I use my Scooter in the Supermarket, it's hard to see people coming. I could knock into them very easily and lots of things on the shelves are breakable. So I will push my Scooter in the supermarket and ride it in the way home."

I have noticed more parents are reluctant to teach awareness of others and the space within them. But of course this cold be my own confirmation bias. But it doesn't matter whether it's more, less or the same if a problem than 10 years ago. It's lazy parenting and a bit unfair to expect other people to just suck up being bumped into or having to listen to videos they didn't ask for.

Frankly i'm sure most people would prefer peppa (or bloody peter rabbit at the moment) quietly on the iphone towards the end of a meal out somewhere when the two year old is restless than the yelling/shrieking/playing up that accompanies tired/bored/cramped up wants to run around toddler...

When my toddler did this, Kerala (and he did, as all toddlers do from time to time) I gave him a warning then took him home, or to the park, rather than merely subject other cafe users to a different type of annoying behaviour.

Was it massively inconvenient for me? Oh yes, it was. Did I have to leave (or pack up) a few meals rather than sit and eat myself? Oh, yes. But it paid off, as he learned to behave, and I learned how to either wear him out in the park before taking him to a cafe, or to cheer him up/calm him down when he got upset. And, more importantly, we did this without inconveniencing others.

Well, I imagine most old, ill people are hardly going to notice the minimal amount of noise coming from a Peppa Pig episode, or will probably have far more important things to worry about. A hospital waiting room is a pretty horrifying experience for everyone. No one goes there to enjoy themselves/soak up the peace and quiet!

Merchant, I was in A&E about 2 weeks ago. It was packed with people of all ages. What they had in common was that they were either ill and/or injured, and therefore stressed, or they were friends and relatives accompanying someone ill or injured, and therefore stressed.

There was a couple there with a child in a pushchair who was playing games on his tablet. The games in question had loud siren noises every thirty seconds. Even the ACTUAL AMBULANCES delivering people did not have their sirens on, pulling into the delivery bay outside.

Can you imagine what this did to the stress levels of the other people waiting in A&E with them? (I don't have to imagine. I could not read, could not concentrate, could not do anything to take my mind off my current predicament, because every thirty seconds: OOOOOAAAAAAOOOOOAAAAAAOOOOO. My blood pressure was through the ROOF.)

Sometimes a low-volume tablet spares those around a wandering/crying/screaming toddler.

Then perhaps the parents should teach that wandering/crying/screaming toddler how to bloody well behave in the first place, without the need to resort to noise that disturbs everyone else to do it.

Being in A&E when you are very ill, stressed, or worse come in with someone who you are very worried about, is awful. Turn down the bloody volume. It is a time when people should be most sensitive to not annoying anyone else.
Also my DP has problems with his ears which means certain types of electronic noise physically hurt. Fine in an ordinary public place, he can move away, but in A&E you are stuck.

And no it is not moral outrage about new technology. When I was young people used to complain about the tinny noise from people wearing earphones for walkmans, that leaked lots of noise.
It may surprise some people, but lots of people have always valued good manners.

BitOutOfPractice
"It's not the volume per se. It's their plinky plonky fingernails-down-a-blackboard irritating nature, it just seems to cut through other stuff and jangle the nerves."

Yup, totally agree. TV programmes and games for little kids have a special "holding their attention" tone to the voices and the sound effects that is almost impossible to ignore. Had a child behind me in the hospital waiting room the other day watching Mr Tumble on her tablet. It was a non-stop cacophony of BOING BOING BOING BOING Hi Mr Tumble! BOING BOING BOING AHAHAHAHAHA........

I feel very sorry for the children who grow up with parents who do not teach them basic manners and to have a care for the needs of others.
They are going to have a far more difficult life than the children who are taught the correct way to conduct oneself when living in a community.

The only really awful behaviour I have been witness to in a public place this summer was a large group of women on a train. A hen party of around 15-20 women age ranging from mid twenties to mid fifties boarding my train around 11am and proceeding to drink heavily, play raucous foul mouthed hen party games about sexual positions etc, play with a male blow up doll, swearing and shouting all within 2 rows of 4 children 12 and under and plenty of disgruntled passengers with no interest in being regaled with the bride to be's sexual fantasies!

These antics were witnessed by my bemused and uncomfortable girls... Fantastic role modelling by older generations there! I think there was a sense of entitlement that went badly awry, not to mention poor planning as they were drinking shots at 11am by 6pm in the actual hen party destination they were no doubt either asleep or puking!

This doesn't make me think we are going to hell in a handcart. There has always been poor behaviour, maybe now there are more people in the world, more materialistic concerns, more tensions in some ways - or at least different tensions. Communities are more fractured so that common understanding of what is right or acceptable sometimes feels lacking, leading to uncertainty. This leaves room for people to act poorly and be unchallenged sometimes, the issue is poor communication more than delinquency.

A group of 'tweens' across the park kicked their ball and it almost took out the old lady who'd stopped to sit down on a bench opposite me. Not one of them apologised the only girl who was with them picked it up and they all shuffled off grinning! Part of me thinks they did it on purpose!

Jassy
Just a couple of things. Yes, I agree we read tge thread slightly differently. You're right- OP didn't actually specify why she was seeing this sort of thing more and more. Many then assumed she meant "it's all going to the dogs" - and the comment that really stuck with me was from another poster (can't remember who) who said common sense and common courtesy barely exist any more. Yes found this stupid and outrageous. That is the mentality I'm seeking to challenge.

Secondly, I'm pleased you challenged my notion of the 'running free' type childhood. It wasn't quite my own experience either- I'm thinking more of slightly older people who hark back to a sort of golden age. I'm about the same age as you. I was suggesting it as a possible explanation for changes in our perception of kids' behaviour. Until you did, no one had even addressed my idea at all!

Archy and brasty I'm not massively interested in which sounds are worse, in what contexts etc etc. As I said, my children don't watch Peppa in public. I only engaged with that specific issue because it seemed so core to the thread, but, as I've said, my main issue with this thread was not individual experiences, but this notion of moral decay. But, sure, I'm willing to concede that Peppa Pig annoys you and others beyond measure.

I do think though, brasty that there's often an element of hostility to new technology, and I think your reference to walkmans proved rather than disproves that.

I'm very happy for people to disagree with my amateur social theories too. I just thought it was, well, a bit rude to totally ignore everything I suggested, what with so many of you being so hot on manners...

FWIW I find loads of people in public massively irritating. But I also try to be kind and tolerant. And I still think our simmering fury at other people's kids is linked to our deep-rooted culture which dictates that children are women's work, and public space is no place for either. No one literally thinks that - but it takes a long time to undo centuries of brainwashing.

I'd be positively flattered if anyone took the time to disagree with any of my points...

Merchant - I disagree with your logic. There is a strong correlation with lazy, entitled modern parenting and the detrimental and inconsiderate child behaviours that we currently witness and which have been described on this thread. Have you never heard teachers complaining about children of five starting reception in nappies because their parents are too lazy to potty train? This is an entirely modern phenomenon as far as I am aware. This is just one manifestation of lazy entitled modern parenting and the other examples of children scooting around inappropriate places are others. To state so unequivocally that this is not a generational issue is bizarre, quite frankly.