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Original poster

To be frustrated by the misunderstanding of the honorific 'Ms' ?

662 replies

ChinkChink · 28/08/2017 11:06

Inspired by another thread.

I've come across many people who believe that 'Ms' is the honorific for a divorced woman, rather than the female equivalent of 'Mr'. People including several employers, managers, supervisors etc, plus friends and family who I'd normally regard as clued up. And many of them women. Confused

I do welcome the introduction of the term 'Mx' as a title to be used when gender is irrelevant [almost always!] but I fear that Mx will go the same way - people will interpret it as a title for someone who is [for example] transgender.

What say you, MN massive?

OP posts:
KatharinaRosalie · 30/08/2017 14:05

Oxford Dictionary - Ms abbreviation BrE /mɪz/
Dictionary.com - Ms. [miz]

Why on earth would you insist on muhzz, mzzzz, muz and any other made up pronounciations? It's like complaining that Mrs is such a horrible title and impossible to say - murrrs, mrrrrss, I just can't manage!!

SenecaFalls · 30/08/2017 14:18

And when people say that they pronounce it mzzz, what is that exactly? In English, you need a vowel sound.

BananasAreGood · 30/08/2017 14:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Copperbeech33 · 30/08/2017 14:43

to me, and in my experience "Ms" means failed in my relationships, regret my choices, and

But that's not what it means. Who are you to make up definitions of words?

but that is what it is USED TO mean. Words mean what they are used to mean. The more people say to me " o you should call yourself Ms so no one knows you couldn't find a husband" the more loudly and proudly I am going to call myself "Miss"

sweetbitter · 30/08/2017 14:52

Katharina a quick glance at the OED online shows that both /məz/ and mɪz/ are acceptable pronunciations.

en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ms

Cambridge and Macmillan dictionaries both agree.

Eolian · 30/08/2017 14:53

Nor does it sound remotely similar to the pronunciation of 'Miss'. Not in most British accents anyway.

Well that's just nonsense. How can it sound not remotely similar when the only difference at all is a z sound, which is simply a vocalised s sound? Accent has nothing to do with it.

sweetbitter · 30/08/2017 14:55

So do you find fuzz harder to say than fizz? Or buzz harder to say than biz??

Copper it's interesting that you are using Miss to show you are comfortable / proud of being unmarried and would see Ms as trying to hide it as shameful. I guess it depends on the bubble we're all in, but I still think Ms has an unshakeable logic of putting women on equal footing with men. Miss and Mrs should just be got rid of IMO.

theymademejoin · 30/08/2017 15:02

@Copperbeech33 - in my experience, Ms is used to indicate a woman. I don't know anyone younger than my mother's generation who uses Miss or Mrs.

So it means what it is used to mean (i.e. a woman). Perhaps you are projecting your negative viewpoint onto others? Or perhaps I am living in a very large liberal bubble where people don't think their marital status is anyone else's business. Who knows?

Seriously though, has anyone actually said to you that you should use Ms to cover up the fact that you couldn't find a husband? And if they have, are they themselves using Ms, Miss, Mrs or Mr? I just think it's sad that women still feel the need to define themselves or others by their relationship status.

orlantina · 30/08/2017 15:04

Seriously though, has anyone actually said to you that you should use Ms to cover up the fact that you couldn't find a husband

When I was asked if I was Miss or Mrs and I said Ms, I got told it was 'frumpy' by a colleague.

SenecaFalls · 30/08/2017 15:07

but that is what it is USED TO mean.

No, it didn't.

grandOlejukeofYork · 30/08/2017 15:08

but that is what it is USED TO mean. Words mean what they are used to mean

No, it didn't, and no they don't.

Copperbeech33 · 30/08/2017 15:11

Seriously though, has anyone actually said to you that you should use Ms to cover up the fact that you couldn't find a husband

yes, as I said, this is the reason given for using "Ms", that is why I won't use it.

I am HAPPY to see my friends happily married, I am not anti marriage, or anti relationship in any way, but some of us are just not suited to that life style, and I hate the fact that we are supposed to keep quiet about it, hide ourselves and pretend to be something else.

Young girls need to see they have options. If relationships are the way to go for them, fine, but if not, then equally fine

Copperbeech33 · 30/08/2017 15:13

No, it didn't, and no they don't.

yes it is, and are you seriously suggesting that a word does not mean what it is used to mean?????

You obviously have a unique and different definition of the word "word" then, don't you.

grandOlejukeofYork · 30/08/2017 15:13

am HAPPY to see my friends happily married, I am not anti marriage, or anti relationship in any way, but some of us are just not suited to that life style, and I hate the fact that we are supposed to keep quiet about it, hide ourselves and pretend to be something else

Which is EXACTLY why women don't need to broadcast their relationship status with their titles! You do realise you are a major part of the very problem you are complaining about.

FoodGloriousFud · 30/08/2017 15:14

I always thought Ms was for spinsters or divorcees too. Never been told any different

grandOlejukeofYork · 30/08/2017 15:15

yes it is, and are you seriously suggesting that a word does not mean what it is used to mean?????

Yes, when you are using a word wrongly, when you have misunderstood the meaning, then it does not mean as you use it to mean.

Copperbeech33 · 30/08/2017 15:16

You do realise you are a major part of the very problem you are complaining about.

what, that single women are supposed to want to hide it under the title "Ms" and not be loud and proud about being single, due to the number of women who feel they should be embarrassed and ashamed, and need a title to cover it up ?

That is the "problem" I am complaining about.

I will always be Miss, and I will never answer to Ms.

theymademejoin · 30/08/2017 15:16

@Orlantina - Frumpy? How bizarre.

I must admit, when I see someone using Mrs, I tend to presume they are old. If someone is using Miss, I presume they are either a child or an older woman who would really prefer to be married but isn't. However, I know these are presumptions based on my experiences and quash them down.

ThymeLordIsSpartacus · 30/08/2017 15:17

Ms has never meant "can't find a husband". Ever. See, it's statements like that that led me to question whether you were being goady. You are repeatedly being incredibly about people who use Ms, despite them taking the time to explain that your understanding of its use is wrong. What is you've trotted out so far? Can't find a husband, unhappy with their lives, regret their choices, failed in relationships etc. etc.

grandOlejukeofYork · 30/08/2017 15:20

what, that single women are supposed to want to hide it under the title "Ms" and not be loud and proud about being single, due to the number of women who feel they should be embarrassed and ashamed, and need a title to cover it up

No. And the 1950's called, you're later for lunch. Hmm

Copperbeech33 · 30/08/2017 15:25

Ms has never meant "can't find a husband". Ever.

that is the reason I've been given that I should use it.... and divorced friends have been told similar, but have also stuck with Miss.

I do know one person in real life that chooses "Ms" - its up to her, she can if she wants. I don't want, and many other people don't want.

theymademejoin · 30/08/2017 15:32

@Copperbeech33 - I think the fact that you feel the need to advertise your singleness is a bit odd, in the same way I think it's a bit odd that someone needs to advertise the fact they are married.

How did you reply to the person (or people) who told you that you should be hiding your single status? How was it worded to you?

I think it reflects someone very lacking in self-confidence and self-respect that sees someone's marital status as something to hide or be ashamed of.

Of course young girls need to realise they have options, as do young boys. Currently, nobody needs to know a boy's/man's marital status. Surely a similar situation is better for girls/women? The whole Miss/Mrs thing or using Ms as a substitute for Miss, with the added undercurrent of shame at your single status is perpetuating the notion that a woman is defined by her relationship status. Simply using Ms/Mr as the only two options would eliminate that.

The fact that many systems/forms in the UK do not offer Miss as an option but do offer Mrs and Ms is appalling. I would prefer just Ms but if you are going to continue to use Mrs, then Miss should also be used as to do otherwise is suggesting being single needs to be hidden.

ikeadyounot · 30/08/2017 15:35

copper - Nooooo, seriously, it's supposed to be a liberation from having to state your marital status. The whole point is that it leaves it indeterminate.

Of course, that's been interpreted by the usual bastard misogynists as "Ms is a title for women who can't find a man, hoho", but those guys are idiots. They will generally also try to tell you that all feminists are lesbians and that women who wear suits just need some cock. Best ignored - don't give 'em the dignity of a reaction. I love your 'independent woman and proud' attitude, but that is precisely what "Ms" was designed to defend - the idea that women's status does not depend on their marital status or relation to a man!

Sweetsnbooksnradio4 · 30/08/2017 15:40

I didn't know I'd been divorced all my (cohabiting) life! Nearly 40 years...

grandOlejukeofYork · 30/08/2017 15:41

I do know one person in real life that chooses "Ms" - its up to her, she can if she wants. I don't want, and many other people don't want

but you don't want to because you have a wrong and frankly bizarre notion of what it means. Which is fine if you don't want to learn, but please stop repeating such offensive bullshit to others.