To be frustrated by the misunderstanding of the honorific 'Ms' ?

[ChinkChink]

Inspired by another thread.

I've come across many people who believe that 'Ms' is the honorific for a divorced woman, rather than the female equivalent of 'Mr'. People including several employers, managers, supervisors etc, plus friends and family who I'd normally regard as clued up. And many of them women.

I do welcome the introduction of the term 'Mx' as a title to be used when gender is irrelevant [almost always!] but I fear that Mx will go the same way - people will interpret it as a title for someone who is [for example] transgender.

What say you, MN massive?

Ms implies radical feminist/lesbian - I get very angry when addressed as a 'mizz'.

Getting angry because someone uses (a correct) title implies idiot.
Ms certainly doesn't imply radical feminist or lesbian And considering most adult women in America get their post to Ms it's really not that hard to get your head around.

Saying Muz, to me means messed up, not happy and proud of who they are

Well Muz isn't a word.

I just had to read a very bad story (by a man) where the evilness of a character was signalled by the fact that she insisted on being called 'Ms'. So there must still be prejudice against it out there!

If you were happy as a single person you wouldn't actually think about your singleness. You wouldn't define your life on the absence of a man. You would use the neutral term that is no reflection on your marital status

Copperbeech33

O, its an americanism, that would explain why Miz doesn't exist in real life in the UK, and I've only ever heard Muz

Oh goodness you really do need to get out more.

because I am "miss", a single, independent woman, with no requirement for any man, perfectly strong and capable enough to run my own household without any male input, and happy and proud to say so

Sorry to burst your bubble but "Miss" is used by many, many married women. I use Miss and Ms.

Sorry to burst your bubble but "Miss" is used by many, many married women.

obviously!

( Its pretty universal for women in schools, apart from anything else)

anyone can use any title they want. I am explaining why I am using mine.

what bubble?

( Its pretty universal for women in schools, apart from anything else)

This gets trotted out as if it were gospel.No it is not "pretty universal" Teachers are Mr Surname , Mrs Surname, Miss Surname or Ms Surname.

The "bubble" that you seem to think "Miss" is sending some sort of signal.

If you were happy as a single person you wouldn't actually think about your singleness.

then, you don't understand the experiences of many single women, quite clearly.

it is not us that defines ourselves by singleness, it is other people, mostly other women.

(Maybe some jealousy, dressed up in condensation and pity quite often)

I don't "pity" married women specifically, if my friends are happy married, I am happy for them, however I do pity some married women very much.

And get told I should "cover up" my singleness by using "Ms" what!!! my singleness is a great pleasure to me, I hugely enjoy single life, and will not countenance anything that signals that I in any way feel it is something I need to hide.

of course if people do choose to hide it, that is up to them, I love it and embrace it, and shout it from the roof tops!

And if people want to cover up being married, fine too, although my friends who are happily married consider it part of their identity and part of their name.

This gets trotted out as if it were gospel.No it is not "pretty universal" Teachers are Mr Surname , Mrs Surname, Miss Surname or Ms Surname.

no they are not, 99 times out of 100 nobody bothers with your sirname at all, you are "sir" or "miss".

I did work in one school where women were "ma'am" but very unusual

The point is neither to celebrate nor to denigrate either married or single life. The point is that men don't have titles that distinguish between the two, because it's not deemed relevant information to deliver: they are assumed to stand, to act, and to be judged as individuals in a way that women are not. 'Ms' is supposed to get around that. 'Dr' or 'Professor' gets around it better.

The "bubble" that you seem to think "Miss" is sending some sort of signal.

it is as much or as little a statement as "Ms" - but a very different statement!

I never used Ms to 'cover up' being single (or married). I'm quite happy to tell people if I'm single or married, and have not been ashamed of either. I just don't feel the need to have my marital status stapled on to my name as a title, when men don't.

That is fine, if thats what you want, ike - it is not what I want.

Does anyone listen to Claire in the Community?

With Ms.Barker

Ms isn't used to cover anything up, do you really think that or are you just being particularly goady? Ms is used because the marital status of a woman is the business of the woman alone. Not of her bank, or the double glazing company, or the Avon lady.

The point is neither to celebrate nor to denigrate either married or single life. The point is that men don't have titles that distinguish between the two, because it's not deemed relevant information to deliver: they are assumed to stand, to act, and to be judged as individuals in a way that women are not. 'Ms' is supposed to get around that.

I get the point of that in theory, but in practice "Ms" is just a stick used by some women to beat other women over the head

Here's an interesting article about the British evolution of the titles Mrs and Miss. There's a strong social class influence. (There's a shock. )

www.newstatesman.com/cultural-capital/2014/09/mistress-miss-mrs-or-ms-untangling-shifting-history-women-s-titles

Ms isn't used to cover anything up, do you really think that or are you just being particularly goady?

why is someone's experience and feeling being different to yours considered "goady"

to me, and in my experience "Ms" means failed in my relationships, regret my choices, and hiding it"

people who say I should use "Ms" to cover up being single are implying that that is how I feel about being single.

It isn't, it is my choice, and I love it, and I am not going to use a title which implies otherwise.

Not least because of the awful signal it sends out to teenage girls about singleness.

There should be a word for people who don't have an alpaca. Nap for example.

Everyone should define themselves by their alpaca owning status. Would that be ridiculous?

to me, and in my experience "Ms" means failed in my relationships, regret my choices, and

But that's not what it means. Who are you to make up definitions of words?

I get the point of that in theory, but in practice "Ms" is just a stick used by some women to beat other women over the head

Indeed.

What was it you said?

Because to me Ms is always going to mean "ashamed of who I am and the decisions I have made" or " getting brow beaten by aggressive feminists, and unable to stick up for myself

to me, and in my experience "Ms" means failed in my relationships, regret my choices

wtf? Do you think the same thing about men who use 'Mr'?

Maybe there should be:

Master for unmarried men (the male Miss)
Mister for married man (the male (Mrs)

Job done.

"Ms" means failed in my relationships, regret my choices, and hiding it"

Hahahah. I have been a Ms since I was about sixteen, and I am still a Ms aged 43. If my long-term partner and I ever decide to marry, I will remain a Ms.

I haven't heard anyone trot out the old 'Ms is only for divorced women' for over a decade, except on mn. It's the 21st century, get a grip.