To expect parents in law to respect our choice to bring our children up without organised religion?

[NikNakPaddyWack]

First post, please be gentle! Essentially my PIL have become more and more overt at attempting to convert my two DDs (aged 9 and 5) to Catholicism. I am an atheist and DH is a non practising catholic who believes in God but not in a lot of the specific catholic beliefs so doesn't go to confession or even church. My PILs live about 45 mins away and see the DC about once a month. Over the summer they have had them for two individual days and are due to have them for 36 hours (ie 2 days with a sleepover in between). They all love each other very much and enjoy each others company.

DH and I had a difficult conversation with PIL a few years ago, in which MIL got very upset - we essentially explained that we are happy for them to talk about their religion, provided they present it as their belief or their faith rather than present it as fact. MIL thoroughly disagreed with this as she believes it is all fact. They eventually took our views onboard and stopped ramming it down my DD1's throat (DD2 was too young at the time to understand). However, over the last few months, MIL has started again. They have always bought them the odd catholic book, which to a certain extent is fine, but she is now following them up with mini "tutorials" as soon as she believes i am out of earshot. I have pulled her up on this a few times.

The last time they looked after the DC for a day, a couple of weeks ago, they took them to church and my youngest has come home declaring that "God is everywhere", doing the sign of the cross all the time and asking if we are going to heaven when we die. DD1 has said that she feels uncomfortable when MIL talks about it ( it is always MIL behaving like this. FIL, despite being an ordained deacon, is far more relaxed about it).

With them due to look after DCs for a sleepover next week, AIBU to ask them to just avoid the subject of religion and not take the DC to church, since they clearly can't stick to the parameters we have set? Or is that mega rude just before you leave your DC in someone elses care? Should I just stop unsupervised access if I'm not prepared to accept their way of doing things? Any advice on how to handle this delicate situation would be appreciated as I am dreading broaching the subject again after last time!

I should point out that DH is happy to do the chat as he completely agrees with me but he is similarly unsure of the best way to go about it to get the outcome we want. I also think they are more likely to listen to me as they will think (correctly) that he is more likely to forgive them.

Sorry for the epically long post but didn't want to drip feed! If u've made it this far I applaud you!

Yes you should talk to them.

Point out that they are disrespecting you as parents.
Point out that they are also already making DD1 uncomfortable.
Point out that both you and DH are beginning to feel that they will go behind your backs to do things with your children that it's important to you they don't do, and that you've made clear before.
Finish with saying that if it carries on the only way to avoid major fallout will be to stop unsupervised time with your DDs.

As a grandmother myself, you need to make it very clear that you will not allow your wishes to be disregarded. My DCs and their DPs were asked what rules they wished us to maintain or respect when we have their DCs.

This matter is non-negotiable and I am saying this as a Christian. Your Mil needs to know you will not tolerate this lack of respect and will cut out all unsupervised visits if this continues.

You have already made your position clear.

MIL has already shown you that this is not going to stop. She had your children aged 9 and 5 for one day and decided a trip to Church was just what they needed.

You now know what will happen every time you are out of earshot or there is unsupervised contact.

Find someone else to look after your children.

If you're going to send them on a weekend including a Sunday I think you might expect they'd take them to church

Pick them up earlier so your in laws can go to church?

Do you trust MIL not to get them secretly baptized against your will?

I don't think it would be unreasonable to stop unsupervised access.

You cant leave your kids with her as she is not respecting your wishes.

The God Botherers often cant help themselves and she has proven to be quite adept at evangelising.

Tell her again but dont be surprised if it continues. After all, your wishes as a mere parent dont count for shit when it comes to the Message and the Truth......

You're not unreasonable at all. This would be a biggy for me and I would have been furious if I'd been in your position with the trip to church, especially as you had already explained your wishes.

As an atheist your views are just as important. My SIL is religious and I am an atheist. I would never dream of going against their wishes when I have her and would never tell her that what her parents were teaching her was not true, despite hay being what I believe . I would 100% expect the same in return

Thanks for the replies, good to know that threatening no unsupervised access is not OTT. Lunde - blimey that hadn't crossed my mind! We had a welcoming ceremony for each DD and allowed FIL to give DDs a blessing as it was nowhere near a full baptism and to us just a token gesture to make PILs comfortable that DDs were not going to hell! Laurie - it was a Tuesday and they had them for the day 9.30 - 5.30 while we were at work. It turned out PIL was asked to perform a service that day so MIL made it a family trip. I didn't know about this. They had had them the previous Tuesday and had taken them to see their cousins for the day. Usually they take them to a NT place or suchlike. I'm not so bothered about them going to church, its more how they 'sell' the religion iyswim?

My DM tried to evangelise to my children at that age. They were well trained in scepticism, quizzed her, pulled apart her logic and then just raised eyebrows at her mad god stuff in future. I never let them stay over though. My DM is way more bonkers than yours though.

Train the children to think and the battle is won.

My DM is a loon but on the attempted conversions I have some sympathy. She believes it so intensely she can't stop herself. Not trying to convert them is like actively hurting them in her mind. It's not a matter of parental wishes, it's after life or death to her.

I wouldn't let them have unsupervised access not whilst they are actively trying to indoctrinate them.

I'd imagine if they see their Grandpa preaching it will be a lot stronger message then if they saw a random person saying the same thing.

Agree they should respect you but if you leave them over a weekend, then you're either asking PIL to skip church or you have to allow them to take your DDs.

My DM belongs to a church I don't want my children participating in so I haven't left DD in her care over a Sunday.

Haha Rabbit, (how do I tag people?) DMIL is also bordering on the loony side. Full on opus dei and chanting over people's twisted ankles at social gatherings. I don't think explaining that she is acting like a witch doctor would go down well though! If we get a good parking space she puts it down to god's will. I am thinking, surely if he exists, he has bigger things on his mind than your parking space!

DD1 is well trained in logical thought and questioning attitudes. But DD2, well being a second child she hasn't had as much of my attention as my first if I'm honest. She also has below average listening skills for her age, which we are working on. Reasoning is a bit beyond her just yet but good tip for the future.

Perhaps you are right BeepBeep, but DD1 has never been phased by it cos she knows what I think and she believes that makes more sense. DD2 is more happy go lucky and hasn't expressed much interest in any life questions yet, so will naturally have been more influenced by it. All I can do is maintain the scepticism and continue to challenge with logic...

@newbian (hoping this tagging malarky works) , I entirely agree, but this was a Tuesday and we were not made aware of the service. They have had the DC on Saturday overnights previously and as a result have chosen to go to a later Sunday service. There is usually one on in the afternoon too.

Off to bed just now but hope to catch up with the responses.

Why is my smiley so tiny? How did I get that wrong? [Confused]

Kids don't exist in a vacuum.

You wont agree with everything every family member/friend/acquaintance says or does.

I think it's sad your being so antagonistic with your in-laws with your kids in the middle.

It's important to them. Let them get on with it. When your with your kids you set them straight. What you teach will have a greater impact on them than the in-laws they see infrequently.

Do you really want to model family division to your kids when you disagree?

Do you trust MIL not to get them secretly baptized against your will?

No catholic priest will baptise a child without knowing the parents, knowing they consent, having them do a full pre-baptism course etc.

That said, I suspect my own mother would have baptised my children herself with holy water if I hadn't done it. If you don't believe it is only a few words and a bit of water - it doesn't actually change anything. My mum also attributed every single good thing in her life from parking spaces to recovery from serious illnesses to god watching over her and every bad thing from lack of parking spaces and illness as the devil testing her - we just found it funny in the context of an overall generous, charitable, intelligent, kind, lovely, funny woman - who had a deep and enduring faith (that sometimes I envied her tbh)

If they are otherwise nice decent loving people, I would ask them to tone it down but kind of leave them off. Explain to your children that granny and grandad believe some things but your family doesn't. Make sure both your children know exactly what you believe in and don't believe in as a family.

In some ways this will be your childrens' memory of their grandparents. Long after they are gone they will be saying to each other and their cousins "do you remember how granny was always saying "thanks be to god for the parking space" etc. This is who their grandparents are. yes they should respect your childrens' lack of religion but if they are anything like my parents, their religion permeates everything - it kind of is who they are.

I would be contacting the priest of their usual church and asking him for his word that he will not baptise the girls if pil ask him to even if they say you are ok with it.

Is fil qualified to do a christening - that's not what they decided to do on that day he got called in to do a service is it??!? Have you asked the dc if anything like this has happened?

@RainbowJack - the DC are so far entirely unaware of the tension. I agree they don't exist in a vacuum which is why we are trying to teach them to understand these different beliefs as exactly that. Its interesting though to hear that you think our beliefs will hold more influence.

@Pallisers - they are wonderful, kind, loving people and yes with MIL it ihas become intrinsic as she gets older. If DD2 wasn't so impressionable at the moment, perhaps it wouldn't have bothered me so much. And I know what you mean about being envious. I miss believing in God more than Santa and fairies!

@bunningsbunny - I think Pallisers has it correct in that parents must be involved and take part in a course first. Yes FIL is qualified to perform a christening but he couldn't do this without our knowledge. Plus DD1 wouldnt let that pass without telling me so I think we r safe on that front. Although again, its just water and words, much like the fairy queen crowning ritual my two invented a couple of weeks ago... I am really off to bed now....

I'm an atheist with atheist/agnostic parents and spent half my childhood in church. How can they form their own opinions on something if you keep them away from it?

I wouldn't interfere other than to say that you don't share their grandparent's faith.

I'm always slightly concerned that by not attending church my own children have missed out on the culture of church & religion (& it does inform even our largely secular society - as you find if you go and live somewhere like Japan). It's an educational experience. Although my kids did go to a very religious primary school. In infants they loved all the religious stuff, by the time they left they were atheist (with no input from me).

I agree with rainbow.

Mi in laws did things that pissed me off. Sometimes I'd swallow it, sometimes I'd rant to dh about it.

But despite our different view points, my mil was a wonderful granny. she died when ds3 was a baby, and never met dc4. I could still cry now at the profound loss in my children's lives of an engaged, caring, loving grandparent.

Whenever I see teddy bear shaped "meat" or some other such shit i smile to myself and think of her and getting pissed off about her grandparental indulgences.

My fil died a few years ago. Now my DC have no grandparents that love them, want to spend time with them, do things differently.

Because as well as learning important life lessons from you, of course their relationship with their grandparents is something special, and different, and also a perfect way of learning that people are different, that different people think, and believe, different things.

I know it feels so big and important to you. But I think it can also be a useful learning tool.

And the example of the car parking. TBH it comes across v sneery. Ypu might not believe in God, but b teaching gratefulness also for very small things, is bbloody a good lesson to learn. BN people tend to focus on negatives, or what they don't have. Teaching people to be grateful, also for sent email things focuses their minds on positives. It's great for good attitude and positive mental health. Eg Read: “A Serving of Gratitude May Save the Day.” This 2011 article in The New York Times shares that gratitude “has been linked to better health, sounder sleep, less anxiety and depression, higher long-term satisfaction with life and kinder behavior toward others, including romantic partners.” you may choose not to attribute thanks to a higher power, but being thank per se , even for minutae, can only be a good thing.

Oh dear, that random " sent email things" should read " small things". No idea what happened there

My sister is getting leaned on by her partner's parents to have my niece christened.

My sister is an atheist and has already conceded to a church wedding (against her better judgement). I told her I wanted no part in it and was not prepared to be a godparent. I'm not prepared to be a hypocrite and swear to a God I don't believe in, to so something I fundamentally thing is wrong and have no intention of doing (indoctrinate a child in a religion I think is malignant and bigoted).

I would be contacting the priest of their usual church and asking him for his word that he will not baptise the girls if pil ask him to even if they say you are ok with it.

He will think you a loon if you do.