To expect parents in law to respect our choice to bring our children up without organised religion?

[NikNakPaddyWack]

First post, please be gentle! Essentially my PIL have become more and more overt at attempting to convert my two DDs (aged 9 and 5) to Catholicism. I am an atheist and DH is a non practising catholic who believes in God but not in a lot of the specific catholic beliefs so doesn't go to confession or even church. My PILs live about 45 mins away and see the DC about once a month. Over the summer they have had them for two individual days and are due to have them for 36 hours (ie 2 days with a sleepover in between). They all love each other very much and enjoy each others company.

DH and I had a difficult conversation with PIL a few years ago, in which MIL got very upset - we essentially explained that we are happy for them to talk about their religion, provided they present it as their belief or their faith rather than present it as fact. MIL thoroughly disagreed with this as she believes it is all fact. They eventually took our views onboard and stopped ramming it down my DD1's throat (DD2 was too young at the time to understand). However, over the last few months, MIL has started again. They have always bought them the odd catholic book, which to a certain extent is fine, but she is now following them up with mini "tutorials" as soon as she believes i am out of earshot. I have pulled her up on this a few times.

The last time they looked after the DC for a day, a couple of weeks ago, they took them to church and my youngest has come home declaring that "God is everywhere", doing the sign of the cross all the time and asking if we are going to heaven when we die. DD1 has said that she feels uncomfortable when MIL talks about it ( it is always MIL behaving like this. FIL, despite being an ordained deacon, is far more relaxed about it).

With them due to look after DCs for a sleepover next week, AIBU to ask them to just avoid the subject of religion and not take the DC to church, since they clearly can't stick to the parameters we have set? Or is that mega rude just before you leave your DC in someone elses care? Should I just stop unsupervised access if I'm not prepared to accept their way of doing things? Any advice on how to handle this delicate situation would be appreciated as I am dreading broaching the subject again after last time!

I should point out that DH is happy to do the chat as he completely agrees with me but he is similarly unsure of the best way to go about it to get the outcome we want. I also think they are more likely to listen to me as they will think (correctly) that he is more likely to forgive them.

Sorry for the epically long post but didn't want to drip feed! If u've made it this far I applaud you!

FlyingFlipFlop: Amen to that!

Some people have a take on religion that defies common sense. My MiL would not tell a child that there is a voodoo doctor ready to punish them for something that is not their own fault. She did, however, tell them that, because they were not baptised, they would go to purgatory when they die. I think in your case I would say that they should not discuss their beliefs in detail with the children until they are much older.

Mil got my kids blessed in a secret ceremony organised by the priest as dh hates religion and refused to get the christened. Still daren't tell him he will go crazy!!!!

I agree that TestTube is spot on.

DD used to go to Sunday school. She did her first communion at 6 and was confirmed at 12. At 17 she is now an atheist. She is perfectly capable of thinking for herself, and it doesn't bother me at all.

I am on the fence with organised religion. I get the impression that many people are afraid of it (I was brought up C of E BTW).

You and your dh need to present a united front, or it will look like its just coming from you. You both need to have a stern chat to them about your wishes, and them disrespecting it. I would warn them, that if it carries on, contact between their gc will be reduced.

I don't have problems with people showing children different religions. It's people's differences that make us all interesting. And I like your way of explaining that people have different faiths. My four attended an extremely religious school and in infants they all seemed to catch the religious bug but by junior aged were completely over it and quite critical of what they had learnt. I didn't encourage them either way as I wanted them to make their own decisions.

It's poor form that your ILs have gone over your heads though when asked to not to - wether it's about food, discipline or whatever.

Personally I'd talk to them and say that you are concerned that the children have been coming back making religious statements and you think they might have forgotten the rules you previously discussed

Should I just stop unsupervised access if I'm not prepared to accept their way of doing things?

Yes - but that's a final straw. As others have said, there's a benefit from understanding the Catholic religion (so much is referenced throughout Western history, philosophy and literature) but you need to know that your children understand that "that's what some people - and Grandma- believe" not that "that is fact". So in your shoes, I'd be sitting the children down and trying to get that point through to them. Some people believe x, others believe y, we believe z.

It's not easy, though, especially with a 5 year old. I tried the same when my DD1 was about that age and she got a little confused as to "why they were lying". I think you need to have a full and frank chat with the ILs as well. I don't envy you. Apart from anything else (and I think people coming from a secular/liberal background can often forget this), in your MIL's eyes, her faith is not a purely optional point. Christianity is a proselytising religion; she will see it as her duty to make sure her granddaughters "see the light" and save them from eternal damnation. It's a very different thing from the sort of community religious belief that you see with some parts of the Church of England. I can well see why you're worried about it.

YANBU. I would stop all unsupervised access and sleep overs until your mil could be trusted not to try an indoctrinated your children behind your back. If my mil did this to me I would actually lose my mind! We are very strongly atheist in this house. Neither of my children are aware of religion or any sort yet and I wish it to remain that way until they are old enough to see religion for what it is and make their own minds up. If my mil started trying to secretly convert them behind my back I would go totally non contact with her. As it is, my mil is religious, so contact is only minimal anyway, but she knows if she mentioned Jesus or God to any of us that would be the last straw.

My mother (a devout catholic) continually quoted me when the children were young her favourite passage in the bible - something about mill stones round your beck if you prevented children from being catholic.
We went to a main stream c of e at the time , I had left the Catholic Church many years previously. No one if us go to church now and I ciunr myself as an atheist as do my children .
If the MIL is as "devout" deluded as my DM then maybe she feels an obligation to rectify the lack of commitment from the parents . All totally wrong.
Yes talk required from both of you with them. But good luck in battling with a higher authority!
Ps my DM is so devout she once was insisting on driving home after having to drink a considerable amount of communion wine because she had drunk "blood" not wine so it didn't count!
Just an example of how batshit people can be.

I think that you might be underestimating your children's capacity for independent thought. If chilsren were so easy to undoctrinate for life, churches would be rather more full than they are

For what it is worth, my parents tried to bring me up staunchly atheist and I ended up taking a different path. Lots of friends were brought up in one religion and ended up atheist or members of a different faith. Your children will work out that different adults in their life and the world believe different things and make their mind up regardless of what you do. I don't think that your level of angst about this is needed.

But good luck in battling with a higher authority!

That's an excellent way of putting it (far more succinctly than I managed!). Sums it up brilliantly.

I think I'd go with "Granny thinks x but we think y, what do you think?"

Doing the sign of the cross is not really anything to worry too much about, kids mimic and it's part of learning about the world around them. Anything different is automatically more interesting than the everyday routine.

5 year olds believe all kinds of things, from Father Christmas to fairies. Today your DD might think God is all around, in the spring she will think a rabbit with brightly coloured clothes on leaves chocolate eggs in the garden.

I think it's good for children to learn about different religions, so I agree with the suggestion of taking them to any open days at the local mosque/synagogue etc etc if the opportunity presents, but generally I think I'd just ignore it as MIL being MIL.

It's not a battle I would pick because it will just make her more determined and make the religious stuff far more interesting (forbidden fruit and all that)

I wouldn't be so sure about the PIL not being able to arrange a baptism at church with the parents permission- a colleague of mine has a brother who moved to England a few years ago, had a little girl but decided against christening her.

When they brought the back to Ireland for a visit, no sooner had the parents been packed off for a lovely, baby free lunch, colleague's dad had whisked the baby round to church for a quick baptism from the priest he was mates with. Colleague and her mum have been sworn to secrecy and understandably her brother would hit the roof if he found out. That was only ~2 years ago, so it does happen!

I find the idea that loving grandparents might get an ultimatum saying "don't ever talk to your grandchildren about your most important beliefs or we will stop you from seeing them" to be rather sad.
Children absorb lots of ideas and information from lots of different sources.If you are determined that they will believe exactly what you believe I guess you may have to keep them away from people who believe differently - after all that is why (in the bit of the US where my sister lives) Christian families homeschool their children.
But not to see their grandparents and have an independent relationship with them is such a loss (if the GPs are basically loving and involved) and it doesn't sound as if your PIL see your DCs anywhere near enough for them to be "indoctrinated". To learn that not everyone shares the same beliefs,yes.
Talk about it lots at home,I think no church is a reasonable rule,but I think being exposed to what other people actually believe,not just a very edited and censored version of that,is good for children.

Neither of my children are aware of religion or any sort yet and I wish it to remain that way until they are old enough to see religion for what it is and make their own minds

Which pretty much makes my point This view says "I'm not going to let my children be exposed to any other view until I'm sure they will agree with me - that's indoctrination,IMO,and fair enough,bring your children up how you want,and you are in the excellent company of many families with strong beliefs both religious and non religious.
But a grandparent mentioning Jesus occasionally is hardly going to threaten that...

Oh boy...

As an atheist & anti-theist I completely see where you're coming from.
However - there is another way :)

Encourage your children to ask as many seriously awkward questions as possible - it's very effective. Point out things like Noah's flood being geologically impossible and disproven, an omniscient god and free will are incompatible, being dead for 3 days and coming back with a promotion (getting to be god) is hardly a "sacrifice" etc etc.

"I contend that we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand the reasons why you dismiss all the other proposed god's - you will understand the reasons why I dismiss yours"

Can't remember who said that.

I think it's quite a small issue and would caution against losing the support of kind and loving grandparents for such a minor thing. What's wrong with children learning about different religions? Surely it's a good thing to understand the diverse society we live in. It is unlikely to have a long term impact- and if they ended up choosing to be Christian, so what? My own went with friends to a Gudwara, went on school trips to a Mosque, attended a wedding in a Synagogue and went to all sorts of Christian events as the eldest two were in a CofE secondary school. They learned how others live and understood different perspectives.
You could just plain different people believe different things. Will you also refuse Christmas presents or Easter eggs?

I don't think the issue is whether OPs children will believe what MIL is telling them. OP isn't trying to block all religion from her children.

MIL is disrespecting OPs and her DHs wishes on a fundamental parenting decision and that is not acceptable just because it is about her religious beliefs. It is irrelevant whether MIL truly believes the children NEED to know. They are not her children. Why should MILs desire for the children to be exposed to religion at that level trump OPs decision for them not to be?

If OP was raising her children vegetarian and MIL repeatedly made them eat meat despite requests not to would that be ok?

It would be incredibly sad if it got to the point where OP had to insist on no unsupervised contact (she's not suggesting no contact) but that's the MIL decision. Is it more important to her to see her grandchild unsupervised or is it more important to be able to try and force her views on them?

notanotherNC really . That is a rather extreme reaction. What exactly are you afraid of? If it is all nonsense then there is nothing to be afraid of.

I agree with Crumbs1. What is wrong with allowing the children to see different points of view now?

I 100% agree priests will bless or baptise without permission as I said my mil did it! She genuinely believes she's saving them!!!

What is wrong with allowing the children to see different points of view now?

I agree with you, Lonicera - but I think the problem with devout Catholicism (as described by the OP) is that it isn't just a point of view. It's a deeply held belief system. To out it crassly, the MIL will believe that the eternal life of her grandchildren is at risk and that she needs to save them. That is rather different from, say, being a lifelong Labour Party member when the kids come from a staunchly Conservative household.

I'd tell the dds 'Grandma only believes that stuff because she was indoctrinated herself as a child, when she was too young to know better or make up her own mind'.

MIL should either accept that her interventions are inappropriate and unwanted, or that unsupervised access will be ended.

In regards to the baptism.

The local priest said they would baptise my son but I couldn't have anything to do with it because I'm not catholic.

Catholic Churches will do it without the birth parents present.

Have you withdrawn them from collective worship at school?