To expect parents in law to respect our choice to bring our children up without organised religion?

[NikNakPaddyWack]

First post, please be gentle! Essentially my PIL have become more and more overt at attempting to convert my two DDs (aged 9 and 5) to Catholicism. I am an atheist and DH is a non practising catholic who believes in God but not in a lot of the specific catholic beliefs so doesn't go to confession or even church. My PILs live about 45 mins away and see the DC about once a month. Over the summer they have had them for two individual days and are due to have them for 36 hours (ie 2 days with a sleepover in between). They all love each other very much and enjoy each others company.

DH and I had a difficult conversation with PIL a few years ago, in which MIL got very upset - we essentially explained that we are happy for them to talk about their religion, provided they present it as their belief or their faith rather than present it as fact. MIL thoroughly disagreed with this as she believes it is all fact. They eventually took our views onboard and stopped ramming it down my DD1's throat (DD2 was too young at the time to understand). However, over the last few months, MIL has started again. They have always bought them the odd catholic book, which to a certain extent is fine, but she is now following them up with mini "tutorials" as soon as she believes i am out of earshot. I have pulled her up on this a few times.

The last time they looked after the DC for a day, a couple of weeks ago, they took them to church and my youngest has come home declaring that "God is everywhere", doing the sign of the cross all the time and asking if we are going to heaven when we die. DD1 has said that she feels uncomfortable when MIL talks about it ( it is always MIL behaving like this. FIL, despite being an ordained deacon, is far more relaxed about it).

With them due to look after DCs for a sleepover next week, AIBU to ask them to just avoid the subject of religion and not take the DC to church, since they clearly can't stick to the parameters we have set? Or is that mega rude just before you leave your DC in someone elses care? Should I just stop unsupervised access if I'm not prepared to accept their way of doing things? Any advice on how to handle this delicate situation would be appreciated as I am dreading broaching the subject again after last time!

I should point out that DH is happy to do the chat as he completely agrees with me but he is similarly unsure of the best way to go about it to get the outcome we want. I also think they are more likely to listen to me as they will think (correctly) that he is more likely to forgive them.

Sorry for the epically long post but didn't want to drip feed! If u've made it this far I applaud you!

A Catholic Priest won't baptise children without a parent present. It's a commitment on the part if the parents to raise the child in the faith. No point if they're not there!

However, anybody can baptise. It doesn't require a ceremony or priest. Just holy water or any water if not available and any person saying "I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit".

Your MIL could have done this in the bath when they were babies. And probably has, seeing as she believes they will be condemned to eternal hell without it.

Thanks for all the views, this is a fantastic sounding board. Just to be clear, we are happy for them to be exposed to all religions and learn about them (we take them to church ourselves every now and again, and have been to a Sikh temple) it is just the fundamentalist aspect that we are uncomfortable with. I think I will speak to DD1 about how to handle these conversations and ignore DD2's fascination at the moment, just let it blow over. We are off to a local mosque in a couple of weeks for an open day so that should open up a natural conversation with both DC.

In the meantime DH and I will both have a quiet word with pil when we drop the DC off to gently remind them of our previous requests and then monitor to see if they adhere to it. I will definitely be keeping a closer eye from now on.

They have already been given a blessing so I don't think they would go so far as to baptise the DC, more likely to try to convert the DC and get them to ask us. I'd rather avoid getting to that point, hence the monitoring.

I just think it's sad that they expect people to respect their views but MIL can't respect ours. Anyway I'm off to do some gardening (oh yay) so will be back on when the DC are in bed tonight.

Thanks again

Catholic Churches will do it without the birth parents present

Of course. It is entirely possible a parent will consent to the child being baptised and reared in the catholic faith by the other parent but not want anything to do with the baptism. What they will not do is baptise without the parents' consent and knowledge. If you know of any catholic priest who is baptising children without the knowledge and consent of their parents, I suggest you contact the diocese and report them immediately.

My mother (a devout catholic) continually quoted ... something about mill stones round your beck if you prevented children from being catholic

I really do wonder about the hold such organisations have on the minds of their members. Note, too, that it's not just faith in god which is expected, but some slavish adherence to their particular religion

Why do they feel the need to do this? Are they so insecure about their cult religion that they feel folk will drift away unless compelled to stay by awful threats of retribution in this life or the next? And what kind of people allow themselves to swallow this wholesale? Are they less questioning in the first place, or are they somehow worked on to remove their capacity for critical thinking once they've joined?

Either way, this kind of thing is precisely why some of us are so strongly in favour of religion being stripped out of all public influence and maintained as a purely private belief

Pallisers with respect, do you seriously believe that every diocese would condemn the practice you mention?

Or is it more likely - as I've personally known - that they'd sanction what the priest had done on the basis that he was protecting a little soul from its parents' unwise wishes?

At least it is only a bit of water chucking which does nothing. One gratitude could be that it isn't one of the religions that does worse.

This reminds me of a colleague who complained that her mil (different religion) looked after her dd who came back, flung herself on the floor and insisted on wearing a towel on her head and chanting the name of the religion's God. She was very but having married into a different religion and using her mil for childcare meant she couldn't really stop her child seeing and emulating the behaviour.

As a lapsed Catholic, I would be bloody furious if my parents tried to persuade my children that their religion was the way forward. I dislike all organised regions, but the Cathloic belief of transubstantiation, the huge worship of the Virgin Mary etc just make me so bloody cross!

The MIL has accepted her own child has moved on from the church whilst maintaining a goid relationship

Even if this is so - and obviously we can't know how the MIL feel about her son moving away from strict observance - I wonder how ignoring the parents' clearly stated wishes for their children fosters "a good relationship"?

It's true of course that nobody can do much about the choices of an adult son - but a child ...?

YANBU, your PIL are. Just tell them that for every time they try to indoctrinate your DC, you will take them to a Hindu temple, pagan ritual, Methodist gathering etc.

Pallisers with respect, do you seriously believe that every diocese would condemn the practice you mention?

Or is it more likely - as I've personally known - that they'd sanction what the priest had done on the basis that he was protecting a little soul from its parents' unwise wishes?

yes I do. I know the hoops I had to go through to baptise my children - and I am a practicing catholic. Ditto my children making confirmation - had to have an interview with the priest to make sure they were doing it of their own free will. If you know of a parish in which baptisms are taking place without the consent of parents then please report it to the diocese or if you think the whole diocese is at it, then go further or report to a neighbouring diocese because this is not normal practice in the catholic church.

Inoculate them as much as you can with a serious dose of critical thinking. Get them to think about it. Talk to them about the gazillion religions that have been since the dawn of time and how every single adherent has believed they are right. Get them to ask awkward questions. Explain that granny and grandad really do believe this stuff but they do NOT have to etc etc.

I would worry about the Opus Dei thing to be honest, not so much the deacon FIL.