To expect parents in law to respect our choice to bring our children up without organised religion?

[NikNakPaddyWack]

First post, please be gentle! Essentially my PIL have become more and more overt at attempting to convert my two DDs (aged 9 and 5) to Catholicism. I am an atheist and DH is a non practising catholic who believes in God but not in a lot of the specific catholic beliefs so doesn't go to confession or even church. My PILs live about 45 mins away and see the DC about once a month. Over the summer they have had them for two individual days and are due to have them for 36 hours (ie 2 days with a sleepover in between). They all love each other very much and enjoy each others company.

DH and I had a difficult conversation with PIL a few years ago, in which MIL got very upset - we essentially explained that we are happy for them to talk about their religion, provided they present it as their belief or their faith rather than present it as fact. MIL thoroughly disagreed with this as she believes it is all fact. They eventually took our views onboard and stopped ramming it down my DD1's throat (DD2 was too young at the time to understand). However, over the last few months, MIL has started again. They have always bought them the odd catholic book, which to a certain extent is fine, but she is now following them up with mini "tutorials" as soon as she believes i am out of earshot. I have pulled her up on this a few times.

The last time they looked after the DC for a day, a couple of weeks ago, they took them to church and my youngest has come home declaring that "God is everywhere", doing the sign of the cross all the time and asking if we are going to heaven when we die. DD1 has said that she feels uncomfortable when MIL talks about it ( it is always MIL behaving like this. FIL, despite being an ordained deacon, is far more relaxed about it).

With them due to look after DCs for a sleepover next week, AIBU to ask them to just avoid the subject of religion and not take the DC to church, since they clearly can't stick to the parameters we have set? Or is that mega rude just before you leave your DC in someone elses care? Should I just stop unsupervised access if I'm not prepared to accept their way of doing things? Any advice on how to handle this delicate situation would be appreciated as I am dreading broaching the subject again after last time!

I should point out that DH is happy to do the chat as he completely agrees with me but he is similarly unsure of the best way to go about it to get the outcome we want. I also think they are more likely to listen to me as they will think (correctly) that he is more likely to forgive them.

Sorry for the epically long post but didn't want to drip feed! If u've made it this far I applaud you!

@ErnesttheBavarian, they do gain so much from having loving grandparents, which is why i want to ensure that their relationship need not be affected by this difference of opinion. We do model thankfulness, including playing the Glad game on occasion (Pollyanna-style). I don't think that Catholicism is necessarily a route to being thankful in everyday life though. In truth it achieves quite the opposite in my experience. Thank for your views though, you make some good points. BTW what does BN stand for?

@Devilishpyjamas, I agree, which is why they have gone to church with me, my husband or both of us on several occasions. As a catholic, he can explain to them what's going on (wish he would explain to me sometimes )

NikNak, I think this is a good opportunity for you to explicitly state to your children what you and your dh believe in as family values. If you do that, then the grandparent stuff is just that - granny and granddad doing their thing. Kids do get it being different.

I always thought that it was most important that we lived our beliefs/values as a family but as my kids got older I realised not only did I have to live the way I believed we should but I had to explicitly say it to the kids too - as in we believe in being kind because ... /we believe it is important to give to charity because ... /we go to (or don't go to) church because ... /we think it doesn't matter who you love male or female as long as you don't hurt people etc.

Honestly your kids will pay so much more attention to you than grandparents.

Full on opus dei

Oh dear The last person I knew who was a member of that eventually left when the mindbending practices became too much and went to stay with her parents ... who immediately found the police on their doorstep after the organisation accused them of kidnapping her

I'm sure you MIL's a lovely lady in herself, but if things have gone this far I doubt she'll desist from the indoctrination and respect your wishes. Perhaps it might be best to give one more very clear explanation of what you expect, then create a bit of distance if she ignores you?

Should I just stop unsupervised access if I'm not prepared to accept their way of doing things?

You have this around the wrong way. The grandparents need to be aware that they could lose access if they're not prepared to respect their grandchildrens' parents' way of doing things.

I absolutely would stop access to anyone who tried to shove religion down my child's throat. Your MIL in particular is being beyond rude and disrespectful to you and DH by continuing on the way she is. She's shown that she can't be trusted, and I don't ever leave my children with people I can't trust.

I am an atheist and active and outspoken in campaigning for a secular society: disestablishment, religion-free education etc.

However, exposing my kids to the occasional mass/ church service / Hindu pooja/ doesn't worry me. It is culturally broadening and actually sets a context for other schools of thought.

Religion is shot through our art, literature, architecture and history.

Also, your kids love your PILS. Religion is deep in their lives. Why shouldn't your kids get a glimpse of how it is to live with faith?

I would say there is zero chance of them being converted.

Unless they are desperate to rebel against you.

I would discuss with your Dd what to say when she feels uncomfortable, for example.

Your DH could have a quiet word with FIL. Tell him what your Dd has said, and ask him to keep it light around religion.

And this : "DD1 is well trained in logical thought and questioning attitudes. But DD2, well being a second child she hasn't had as much of my attention as my first if I'm honest. She also has below average listening skills for her age, which we are working on.". To quote myself "unless they rebel against you "

PIL taking the children to church and talking to them about God wouldn't worry me in normal circumstances.

What would worry me though is the fact that MIL belongs to Opus Dei... In your situation, I would probably not leave the kids with her for long periods of time -- few hours max. And only after a strong talking to with your DP and yourself stating firmly that given their religious views and practices, they shouldn't mention religion at all to your children.

Don't make a big deal of it. If you OH managed notch follow the faith himself it shows that all what they might teach doesn't mean you're kids will be indoctrinated.

I remember when my DD canned home one day announcing she wanted to be a Christian and believed in God even if means her dad didn't. When I asked her why she said because her teacher was! Told her it was her choice. No need to say that it didn't last more than a few weeks.

I too grew up with grand parents (steps) who were very religious and had to go to church and all with them. Didn't like it much but didn't turn me Catholic. .

Relax, let them build a relationship and continue to talk to your kids and tell them that being religious is an individual choice.

OP you can't demand respect or anything from your In laws.

You can stop using them as free child care however.

My MIL told my DD that her fidget spinner having three points represented The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.
She often says things to my children, particularly when I'm not there.

She often says things to my children, particularly when I'm not there.

My family are all bible bashers.

I have never left them alone with my children.

Religion is personal and we all find our way either with or without it. Testtube has it right to be honest.

I'm just off out to clean the church before today's service. My kids are atheists. They haven't been indoctrinated, and I haven't turned into an atheist. It's crucial in this world that we all start to listen to each other's views and accept we are all have different opinions and beliefs. I have no right to tell Testtube she is wrong and I respect her opinion. I imagine vice versa.

Here endeth today's sermon.

Religion is personal

If only.

As a bit of balance, could you take them to a synagogue or mosque if your DD is showing signs of repeating what they are teaching her? Show her that there are other views and that her grandparent religion is only one in the world. Also talk to your DCs about not having a religion or about science and fact?

You could also talk to them about all the aspects of a number of religions, e.g. Views on women, gay people, land and property ownership, influence on law and state etc.

But in general, YANBU.

Religion should be personal.

Cailleach666 my children are very good at questioning everything and they don't believe a word of it. They know that religion is the tool of the oppressor.

I admire that you're bringing up your DC to question & logically evaluate life. That being said, your MIL sounds like (and I mean this in the nicest way possible) a fundamental nutter.
Definitely should be respecting your choice as to what belief system, or lack of, you are bringing up your DC with. I wouldn't be upset with her bringing them to church provided you have given the OK, but teaching them that their beliefs are the only 'true' ones is concerning. Would definitely have a chat with them about it & YANBU to cut off unsupervised time if that's what you see fit.

I would go crazy at this. Would she do the same if you were Jewish, Hindu or whatever? I say this because I have a religion and would be very upset if my DM did this (no MIL).Train your DD1 to say, "I'm not interested. " Hopefully, your DD2 will come to her own conclusions when she's older.

Just to say I am a catholic. I also have logical thoughts.

Agree with others I doubt they could convert your children just by taking them to church. Your children have to make their minds up for themselves. However it makes sense to be talking to them about what you believe and why. We have a muslim family member and my children 6 and 4 know that she believes different things to us. They also know that some people believe in different Gods or no God.

I would say you need to spell it out to your mother in law again. NC for loving grandparents seems overly harsh but if after this chat MIL continues to push it you could reduce contact to times when you are there for a while and if they ask why you can explain.

If you dont want them to go to church make this clear and avoid sundays. I think my childrens lives would be enriched by visiting a mosque or temple or whatever.. The private 'lessons' are a bit odd though.

Just to say I am a catholic. I also have logical thoughts.

Love it.

I wouldn't give them unsupervised access to your children anymore. They're happy to ignore your wishes and try to convert your children.

We were christened without our parents permission (70s) and my FIL had my GMIL baptised on her death bed and arranged a catholic funeral for her despite her already having a COE funeral arranged and paid for.

I wouldn't make any assumptions.

cailleach I mean that the two are not mutually exclusive. Many (most?) people with faith have given lots of thought to it, have questioned aspects of their faith and come to some conclusions. We do not all blindly believe in sets of rules.

Perhaps religion should be personal but humanity has somewhat failed in that regard. Faith is personal.

My parents brought me up in an agnostic/atheist household. My nan was very catholic. Mum always suspected she got me baptised or attempted to and still rants about it. I don't get it. So what if she did? If you don't believe in it it's a bit of water and some words.
Just carry on showing them your values and explaining that different people have different values. Whilst they are young your values will always trump what they are told by others. They will go along with what you think because they trust you. That's what happened in my case despite my nan's and other people's best efforts.
I don't think you need to restrict contact or do anything drastic.
Of course there comes a point where your children make their own choices. You'll have to trust that you've brought them up to think things through. But be prepared that they won't follow your world view. I wouldn't worry about that now though.,,

mrstrebus that was a long time ago. We had to attend classes before our children were baptised and there's paperwork we had to sign.I doubt any prieat would agree without parents and the FIL is a deacon so would probably be breaking a very strict code of conduct. Plus the OPs kids are not babies so would surely tell their parents if anything was going on.

Are you prepared to threaten/non contact over this? if they are otherwise kind loving grandparents I wouldn't be.

I think it is insensitive to ask them to present it as a belief rather than fact because for some people that's what it is.

When your Dc ask questions I would give them the alternative view at that time. Will be good for them to see people believe different things. Also when they do experiece death in their family heaven is a nice idea for them.