To not pay this childminding bill

[Ellie6578]

My one year old goes to a childminder 4 days a week whilst I'm working since October last year, I've had no issues so far.

My dd visits her dad for 2 weeks every 6 weeks, so she doesn't go to the childminder during these times (he lives up north and I'm down south) however I understand that I still have to pay for her missed days in order to secure her place (her dad pays for these 2 weeks of missed time) and that's fine as my contract states I have to pay for 4 days a week even if my dd doesn't attend.

She came back this week after only 4 days of being with her dad unlike the normal 14 days. This was because her dad had to go to Germany for a few days for work and my little girl really would not settle with his mum.

I messaged my childminder and said my dd had come home early and would she be able to have her tomorrow as normal. My childminder stated she could not have her for another 4 days as she had taken in another child for childcare which took up my daughters space. Ok I thought, my mum took time off work to look after her.

I got the invoice yesterday and I've been charged for those 4 days even though I was told my daughter couldn't go in because she had filled her space! So if I paid for it, the Childminder's earning double for half the work. Aibu not to pay for those 4 days?!

So basically you're paying for nothing?

Just read the thread from start to finish and I need an update!

A few points though - I think the car park analogy is best. I once paid for a room in a hotel in full and turned up and found they had given it away when I hadn't arrived by 11pm. I was given the option of a refund or a (rubbish) alternative. I reluctantly (had an exhausted 4 year old in my arms) accepted the alternative and took my anger out on a very detailed trip advisor review. Your Child minder hasn't offered any alternative or refund! Very cheeky.

Secondly... my child minder does charge for her holidays. She doesn't seem to realise that is generally not how self employed people work. She also often gets her invoices wrong. There has been more than one occasion where I have pointed out she had to close due to illness, I had to take a day off work and she had charged me. She then noticed her mistake. I would firstly assume this is what has happened.

Re the post above, childminders have every right to arrange their fees so that they include a reasonable amount of holiday and sick pay if needed -- so long as this is clearly indicated in the contract.

'my child minder does charge for her holidays. She doesn't seem to realise that is generally not how self employed people work.'

Depends on their line of work. From this thread, it's clear lots of CMs do this.

Provided they operate within the law and meet all regulatory requirements (e.g., Ofsted), CMs are allowed to set their own fees, their own policies, and their own terms and conditions. Some charge for holidays/sickness, some don't. Some provide food, some don't. Some offer the funded places for 2yos/3yos, some don't. And so on. This is why it is vital to visit their setting, ask questions, and read the paperwork before you sign it.

I can understand why minders might prefer a couple of days notice. But his woman couldn't take her child for four whole days. And not because she had booked a holiday or a trip out, but because she was providing that same service for another paying customer. I would put money on the fact she regularly has another child in on those days and got caught out with it. What's the chances she picked up a random child on those days.

I just can't believe so many people would just pay up, or worse, feel this is totally acceptable.

Depends on their line of work. From this thread, it's clear lots of CMs do this

Some do but as other self employed people only charge for the hours they work or are available to work, it's not surprising that many parents don't really they are going to do this until it's too late. I'm not sure if they do it to make themselves look more competitive vs. other childcare or if it is because they don't understand the difference between being self employed and an employee. It's a bit like the no frills airlines advertising a low rate but then charging for extras that can't actually be avoided such as checking in. There's no law against it but I think it is quite a sharp practice. It would be far more honest to increase the hourly rate and just charge for the hours that you are available to work.

Foo! haven't seen you around for a while, good to see ya!
(I have NC'd but remember chatting to you on a thread ages ago...)

Maireadplastic: It's simply working. And hard work at that. Do you think because it's thought of as women's work it shouldn't be paid properly?

Of course it's hard work, but I see people on here who are also working very hard, and don't make anything near that amount of money - additionally, some people mention that their combined household incomes don't equal that.

I was a teacher, and at times, when I worked as as Teacher-Librarian (there you go - two careers in one, both considered to be primarily women's jobs), I would be teaching a class as well as keeping my eye on another 20 -50 children using the library. So, don't lecture me about hard work. From what I gather, 40 000 pounds is a reasonable salary for a teacher in most parts of the UK.

Additionally, you don't have the fuss of having to have a professional work wardrobe that meets reasonable standards, or travelling times plus what seems to be inordinate amounts of money that people have to fork out for public transport -people here have said that they are spending 100s of pounds a month on public transport.

So yes, if you are getting 25 pounds an hour, compared to a waitress who gets 7 pounds per hour (I just looked it up) or a teacher whose annual salary, without promotion, seems to top out at roughly 39 000, I'd say nice little earner.

user1497863568 Mon 28-Aug-17 08:54:15
Maireadplastic - Obviously women caring for others children are just doing it for a bit of pin money and as it's not a 'proper job' they have no right to be 'nice little earners'

Okay, I get that you are trying to be sarcastic, but f you can so derisively refer to 40 000 pounds as "pin money," what would you call a substantial salary?

user1497863568:
Oh, and by the way, if you read my earlier post, you will see that I did spend time "caring for other people's children" - plus many years training to. (Goodness, that sounds so noble and self sacrificing! yes, I'm Ms Chipps).

You do know £40,000 is the exception rather than the norm, right? Most childminders earn below minimum wage, especially those who have children of their own as this restricts their ratios (your own children count as part of your ratio). £25 per hour is unusual, the average is £3-£4 per hour. Then expenses need to come out of it such as annual registration fees, training fees (first aod and food hygiene need to be renewed regularly), overheads such as food, utilities, equipment and resources, and so on.

From what I gather, 40 000 pounds is a reasonable salary for a teacher in most parts of the UK.

A teacher working in an EYFS setting has all of her resources provided by the school from play equipment right down to toilet paper, a CM has to buy her own. Added to the fact that most CM earn far less than this, as per my post above, and the difference between gross income and net profit.

This £40,000 salary being quoted is a bit disingenuous.

I'm a childminder and I can't believe she's asking!

On occasions other parents have asked if I can do an extra day and by coincidence someone could be on holiday so I will say yes. However OFSTED allows a continuity of care exception which allows CMs to make a variation on their ratios in the case of changing hours or days for example so it would be no problem to have the original child back if needed.

As an addition, I do earn well and also work very hard to earn it. But part of that hard work is my reputation! I think the cm is cheeky to still charge.

I think the key point, regardless of what the CM says, is that you asked to use the place that you were (quite reasonably) paying for while DD is normally away, and were told no. By refusing to take the DC, the CM broke the logical reason for charging when DD isn't there. I don't think she can refuse to have a well child, because of something she has changed, then charge you - even if tat was in the contract, I think it would be considered an unfair contract.
What you can do about it is harder tho, if you plan to continue using her its all a bit awkward.

YANBU - cheeky fucking Childminder.
I'd be livid and moving her asap - if she treats you like that, imagine how she treats your child.

I love all the speculation when no one has seen the contract. Perhaps OP is contractually obliged to give 4 weeks notice (or however long it says) to use her retained days. If so, then this is what was agreed.

OP please just speak to your CM and renegotiate your contract if you need to / are able to.

If my parents are sending a child on a day they are booked off, they either give me plenty of notice, or ask if it's ok for them to come. They don't just assume I haven't made plans.

The CM may not have made extra money. Perhaps another parent just asked if it was ok to swap days that week, or perhaps a friend came over to play. We don't know.

My contracts would not have the OP paying in these circumstances, but we don't know what she's agreed to.

if she treats you like that, imagine how she treats your child.

ODFOD, there has been no suggestion whatsoever that the CM has mistreated the child is any way although I'm surprised it got to page 20 before someone alluded to neglect

I love all the speculation when no one has seen the contract... my contracts would not have the OP paying in these circumstances, but we don't know what she's agreed to.

Well exactly.

@Skittykitty

No suggestion of it, but perhaps it is happening.
If you cannot trust your CM, that should be massive alarm bells.

I love all the speculation when no one has seen the contract

Nobody needs to see the contract. You can have someone sign that they will shit rainbows and only use the paid for space on days with an x in them in your contract, but it doesn't make a flat bit of difference.
CM is a cheaty mcripoff merchant.

IClavdivs- I didn't come up with the 40k figure. The figure is irrelevant. I don't understand how it is a 'nice little earner' (suggesting some cushy trick) rather than someone's earnings, that's all.

Skittykitty Added to the fact that most CM earn far less than this

That actually was my point in my original post, when I made the tongue in cheek comment of "Nice little earner." Sadly, a couple of CMs seemed to feel I was being snide and got into a snit and feltl I was disparaging their worth, so I suppose I responded to them in kind. Since I worked in a teacher's role for years, I obviously don't think that child minding is "women's work" and deserves to be paid accordingly.

My original comment was in response to, and directed at, a previous poster who said that she was paying double the 4.20 pounds/per hour which the original poster is paying: to paraphrase Hilaire Belloc "It made (me) Gasp and Stretch (my) Eyes."

I actually wasn't being disingenuous: rather I was being sceptical that a child minder would earn this, and that a parent would be prepared to pay at least 68 pounds for 8 hours or 84 for 10 hours if their travelling had to be factored in - for one child. Good on then if they do - just forgive me for being dubious.

Additionally, can't CM claim things like toilet paper, books bought for children, toys, etc as a tax deduction? I know when I was teaching I could claim some things I had to buy/electricity used/special clothing essential to the job.

Not on. You pay to keep the space open so CM doesn't lose out if she cannot fill the space for the 2 in 6.

But if you pay for a space then it's yours whether your DD attends or not. That's why the CM charges you for it that way.

Maireadplastic The figure is irrelevant.
No, I came up with the figure, from the statement of an earlier poster. I think you have missed my point - I was sceptical that a child minder caring for 3 children could earn that much.

And, no, of course the figure is not irrelevant. The figure is extremely relevant. If you can earn 40 000 pounds pa for minding 3 children then yes, it is a nice little earner. Nor does the term "nice little earner" automatically mean a cushy trick - a term I have never heard off, and and means, I presume, a cushy job.

Ummmm, where is the OP?!! Come back ellie6578? Never seen a 20 page thread with only one post from the OP!