To not pay this childminding bill

[Ellie6578]

My one year old goes to a childminder 4 days a week whilst I'm working since October last year, I've had no issues so far.

My dd visits her dad for 2 weeks every 6 weeks, so she doesn't go to the childminder during these times (he lives up north and I'm down south) however I understand that I still have to pay for her missed days in order to secure her place (her dad pays for these 2 weeks of missed time) and that's fine as my contract states I have to pay for 4 days a week even if my dd doesn't attend.

She came back this week after only 4 days of being with her dad unlike the normal 14 days. This was because her dad had to go to Germany for a few days for work and my little girl really would not settle with his mum.

I messaged my childminder and said my dd had come home early and would she be able to have her tomorrow as normal. My childminder stated she could not have her for another 4 days as she had taken in another child for childcare which took up my daughters space. Ok I thought, my mum took time off work to look after her.

I got the invoice yesterday and I've been charged for those 4 days even though I was told my daughter couldn't go in because she had filled her space! So if I paid for it, the Childminder's earning double for half the work. Aibu not to pay for those 4 days?!

This is RL not East Enders.

It's really important to maintain a calm and friendly relationship with people who have responsibility for your DCs!

The situation you are describing does not sound reasonable but before anything else you have to:

1. Read the contract carefully
2. If it seems she is in the wrong send a polite and breezy text saying you are about to pay the invoice but wanted to let her know she'd made a slip and you will be deducting some for the time she wasn't available.

CM is very unlikely to come back at you if you take that approach and you will have restored some fairness to the situation for yourself, all without an argument or legalities. That's important because any other way is stressful and she won't be well disposed towards you and your child (you don't want that).

If she does quibble then calmly make plans to find a different CM.

There are 2 ways of looking at it.1) you have an arrangement which states you pay for 6 weeks and your child attends 4 (in this case you don't have a legal leg to stand on) or 2) your contract is for a place every week and doesn't say anything about attendance ( in which case you might have more luck)
Lots of businesses do sell things twice and over eg airlines, hotels on an assumed level of nonattendance

What the hell has it got to do with Tax credits office?
What are they going to do about it?

Its got nothing to condition tax credits or ofsted or anyone else
Its between the op and the cm
The op either asks the cm to change the invoice or she accepts it
The cm can waive the fee in the interests of goodwill or insists it's paid
Either way, both are free to end the arrangement, other childminders are available

You need to check out the contract wording of course as a first step. BUT a contact that requires you to pay for a service that - in this case - was not available to you sound like "unfair contract" and is likely challengeable. The idea that you have to pay for your space whether you use it or not seems reasonable - the idea that you cannot use the space you are paying for does not. If you have to fight this then you should also be insisting on evidence that the unused spaces you have paid for in the past were also actually available and - if they were not - then a refund of past payments.

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!! I am a childminder and this royally peeved me off!!!! You pay when she is not there so it secures your space and she is therefore "available" for you! I dont care of other minders with different opinions rip me to shreds but people like her give minders a bad name.

You do realise you are paying for most of the self employed people who might come to your house to do building work, plumbing etc's holidays?

You don't pay other self employed people fe.g. painter or decorator if or time they are not actually working or available to work though would you? Obviously they charge a higher amount per hour to take into account the fact that they are not paid when on holiday but that is not the same thing. When childminders charge even though they are not available for work e.g. on holiday it seems that they are just fiddling the headline charge and trying to make themselves look cheaper than they really are or they just don't understand the difference between being self-employed and an employee. Either way it is not impressive and makes CM look far from the professional people they claim to be.

Exactly knightofwands.

And let's suppose (huuuuuge stretch of the imagination here!) the contract did actually say 'Full price charged but you're not allowed to send your dd on those days (!!)' then why on earth would the OP have signed up to it and then expected the place to be available?

I haven't RTFT but my understanding is: if you pay full price for your child's space when they are away, you should be able to use that space as and when you need to. If the CM takes another child which means you cannot use the space, you don't pay! However it's probably only come about because normally you'd be away or whatever so wouldn't know that your space was being used. Really cheeky.

But I agree with pp that you need to be calm about it as she's the one looking after your DC. I would just say: hi x, received your bill, just wanted to clarify- I wanted to send x to you on x dates but was unable to do so as you had another child, as I wasn't able to use my space on x days I can't pay for those days. Obviously I will pay for all days x didn't come and I didn't need her to, but if I am paying the full amount for her place even when we are away, her space does need to be kept open for me to use in case of any change of plans.

CM is very unlikely to come back at you if you take that approach and you will have restored some fairness to the situation for yourself, all without an argument or legalities.

No. If a customer amended an invoice I'd given them without discussing their issue with me first I most certainly would come back at them. I'd come back at them to say that the invoice amount is the amount shown and that if they wish to discuss it we can make an appointment to talk. Advising the OP to be deliberately passive-aggressive "oh ho ho, silly you made an error, no worries though I've corrected it for you" does her no favours and is likely to piss the CM off and result in the CM refusing further childcare for OPs child.

Real life is not AIBU.

I agree that it is best to speak politely to the childminder first to query whether this actually is or isn't an error. If she really thinks that this is reasonable though I would probably let her know firmly that I don't agree and would refuse to pay but it does depend on how much your child likes her and on how whether there is alternative childcare that doesn't have unfair contract terms though. I think that is why some CM get away with this kind of thing. If any other business tried it customers could vote with their feet but it isn't always so easy where childcare is involved.

Hi OP.

How is it going? Have you had any word back from the CM yet?

Babbitywabbit, I was not sure if you are agreeing with my view or not.

Imprudent as it may seem, a lot of people do not read through the details of something before they sign. I do not want to take speculation too far but there will even be occasions when something that seems unreasonable gets signed. However, if the contract is unreasonable (as seems to be the case here) it is challengable.

I acknowledge it is possible (and indeed likely) that the child minder does not view her actions as wrong - so it may be worth seeking to reason with her as a first step. But failing that, if this matter needs to be escalated, I doubt the child minder will win (irrespective of what it says in the contract).

Wow, this was just a thought, trying to understand cm actions which I don't agree with. As do not know exactly OP situation, does she get her 70 percent off or not. But how much hatred sarah1987 hope you feel better soon.

Scooby, I do agree it is nothing to do with OP financial situation. This was just a thought as if and why. I had parents keep on claiming after they have finished years with me. The only reason I know about it is because they had a cheek to approach me and to ask to for the paper to confirm they have been paying. But guess what, I do pay my taxes too and can not give a paper to say i have been paid while I haven't. And this has happened not just once, and not only to me, but fellow childminders. Saying that I believe that a vast majority of my clients are honest and hardworking parents and I give them every flexibility I can.

Elizabethshaw,75 percent off 175 is a lot IMHO. But then, again, we all are different and I don't like assumptions. As a parent myself I was never entitled to any childcare help

I was agreeing, knightofwands. There are some posters who seem to think that a contract can't be challenged, but of course if it's unreasonable it can be. So, even if the cm had it spelt out in the contract that those 2 weeks have to be paid in full but the OP cannot send her dd (!!) then it would be highly likely to be considered unreasonable. But we know the OP didn't sign a contract saying that anyway because she phoned up and asked for the place, expecting it to be 'held' as agreed. And what on earth person in their right mind would sign such a bizarre agreement? It would make no sense. When my kids were at nursery, and we had to pay all year round, I informed the nursery out of courtesy when my kids wouldn't be attending. But if they'd said 'right sign here because when we know you've likely to not need us we want to still charge you but use the place and charge someone else too,' I would of course said no, it's my children's paid for place which I may (or may not) use

No way I would pay it. If I am paying for a space I'm not using, that's one thing, but if I have paid for a space and it isn't available to me, I would be asking for a refund.

We're gone past nursery now but have a similar rule in After School club. We pay to reserve five afternoons a week from 3-6, but most days she is in for an hour, maybe 90 minutes at a push, and often she misses days because she has hospital appointments. Happy to pay for that, but if I notified them she would be off then circumstances changed and they said she couldn't come because they were full, I would be asking for a refund. Or if all their staff went out sick and they couldn't operate etc. If they are denying a service you have booked, you can't be expected to pay for it. If your contract says you risk losing the days you are paying for if your child doesn't go then fair enough, but I doubt it says that.

It sounds to me like she realised the pattern of your daughter being away and went out to find someone to fill that space. She can't do that and charge you if your circumstances change and she can't deliver the service.

Lots of businesses do sell things twice and over eg airlines, hotels on an assumed level of nonattendance
Yes they do. But if I turn up for my flight or hotel and it is overbooked, they don't say "ahh well, never mind, you can take another flight in 4 days time and we'll charge you for that too" They either refund you, or move you to another flight / hotel. They only profit twice if I don't use that service, which is fair enough.

You are right to object. You are paying to secure your daughter's place and could therefore use those days. If she is unavailable you should not have to pay. Refer to your contract too if needs be, as should be stated in there.

But we know the OP didn't sign a contract saying that anyway

I'm sorry but how do we know this? None of us has had sight of the contract, none of us knows what is stated, none of us knows whether it's phrased as a deposit or a retainer or what reference is made to the space being help open. So no, we do not know what the OP did or did not sign.

Skitty- well no, none of us have seen the contract but my point is that if the contract had explicitly stated she couldn't send her daughter for a fortnight, every 6 weeks, then the OP would have known that and not phoned up expecting to be able to send her dd. She also says in the OP she pays to 'secure the place.'

We can speculate as much as we like but I'm going by what the OP actually says

OP believes she pays to secure the place and rang up to arrange to send her DD in based on that belief. It doesn't mean that this is actually what the contract says, as I'm sure you'll be aware there are many people who sign things without properly reading them or fully comprehending them. This is why OP has been advised to check her paperwork to see exactly what it says.

Check your contract but, IMO, if you were able to use the place then of course pay for the place, but as your DD couldn't go then you shouldnt have to pay. Ask the childminder why you are paying when she wasn't available to work x

@Ellie6578 are you coming back to the thread you started??

'I still have to pay for her missed days in order to secure her place (her dad pays for these 2 weeks of missed time) and that's fine as my contract states I have to pay for 4 days a week even if my dd doesn't attend. '

Seems pretty clear the OP does know what her contract says, and that she is paying to secure the place, not just randomly thinking she might be doing that!

But yes, check your contract anyway because if it actually states that you are paying full rate but the cm has no obligation to mind your child (wtf?!!) then no doubt it's unenforceable anyway because it's not reasonable.

Do please update us OP