Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be sick and tired of women's concerns being silenced?

703 replies

MerchantofVenice · 20/08/2017 09:40

Obviously I wouldn't dream of doing a TAAT.

But is anyone else as furious as I am that every time people try to raise legitimate concerns about the legislation about self-identity and transgender people, the whole discussion is shut down?

There's this undertone of 'Oh, you can't say that!!!' when people state scientific facts.

And at the same time, there's this myth that 'MN is one of the only places you can actually discuss the transgender debate openly.' Like fuck it is.

Your average person on the street isn't intimately acquainted with the madness of the debate and will have no qualms about stating facts. You see it on the comments after those nonsense news articles ("Man gives birth"). When you explain the situation to novices (as I did to my husband) they are gobsmacked. They had no idea that it was somehow a hate crime to be literate in biology.

And that's part of the problem; this hushing up colludes with the idea that people are saying something controversial. The debate stays secret and the tide of common sense never comes.

So sick of it.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 20/08/2017 14:14

I would hate group therapy. I would not find it helpful. It terrifies me.

Then don't have it. But you are advocating that female focussed counselling should include men. And you are dismissing everyone's concerns with "well I don't want to do that" and "I don't care about that so it's not an issue for me". Deeply self centred, aren't you?

SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 20/08/2017 14:15

Personally, I think it's just common sense that before you change the definition of a word which is used in a lot of legislation, you do an impact analysis of the implications of that change.

Until they've published that impact and risk analysis, it would be stupid to change the definition of woman from 'adult, human, female' to 'anyone who says they are'

dolcezza99 · 20/08/2017 14:15

Do you think she would be happy to share a room or a cell with a person , no matter what that person called themselves, who has a penis?

Why do you assume that every woman is terrified of a humble penis? There are some women who aren't, you know, and who don't assume that everyone who has a penis is out to attack them. This really is most bizarre.

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 14:15

No Ereshkigal. I am severely affected by both my autism, which I was born with, and by the severe sexual and physical assault I suffered which I am trying to make sense of.

I apologise if I have caused offence.

maxthemartian · 20/08/2017 14:16

As opposed to an arrogant penis for instance?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 20/08/2017 14:16

I shall bow out as my experience and solutions is not welcome here

Nobody has said your experience is not welcome. Your inability to imagine seems not to affect you in that regard.

Your solutions as far as I can tell are to provide single occupancy toilets for everyone which don't begin to address issues such as healthcare.

Ereshkigal · 20/08/2017 14:17

As a rape survivor I would also hate group therapy. But it helps other women, so it's important to me that they can do it in an environment they feel safe and secure. I once read a piece about how transwomen were accessing these kind of groups so they could imitate and practice being women. I wish I could find it but I can't. They are male. That is horrifying.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 20/08/2017 14:18

Deeply self centred, aren't you

Most people I have encountered who think like this were born male and with a dick between their legs. Just saying.

Ereshkigal · 20/08/2017 14:19

I think there are plenty of women who are happy to throw other women under the bus to benefit males.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 20/08/2017 14:19

Why do you assume that every woman is terrified of a humble penis? There are some women who aren't, you know, and who don't assume that everyone who has a penis is out to attack them. This really is most bizarre

I don't assume everyone with a penis is out to attack me. I said nothing of the kind. Had I been raped by a penis bearer and sought refuge in a rape crisis shelter or if I were locked in a cell I might well feel differently.

Papafran · 20/08/2017 14:20

And fight to remove the link between a GRC and the sex entry on a birth certificate

What do you mean by this? Currently, a GRC gives the holder the right to apply for a new birth certificate showing the new gender. The whole point of the Gender Recognition Act was that after fairly extensive medical and psychiatric treatment, a person could legally change gender and be recognised as always having had that gender.

Are you saying that you want the Gender Recognition Act repealed so that transsexual people are still legally known by their birth-gender? What would be the point of a gender recognition certificate in that case?

I can see the concern, but I am unclear as to what people want. I am sorry, but it would be extremely unfair to trans people to undo the rights they acquired under the GRA, based on a fundamental incompatibility with human rights, in order to appease a fear that women's rights are being completely eroded. Trans people are a minority group who do require protection. Yes, that protection should not come at the expense of another protected group (women), but there must be a way for the two to co-exist.

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 14:21

Yetanother

I am female. I am a woman. I have a vagina I was born with. I am unable to have a re,arionship with anyone I can't hardly go out of my house because I have complex mental health issues, some as a result of an assault, some i was born with. I don't know what more you want me to tell you?

How many times do you people need me to say I am a woman before you will believe me ?

SmileEachDay · 20/08/2017 14:23

Cat and actually, using your HFA to not accept and believe the experience of other women isn't ok.

Particularly when you have called others out for doing this to you.

Ereshkigal · 20/08/2017 14:23

Yes, I want to change the GRA and the Equality Act so trans people have certain things registered in their birth sex. It's not right. Sorry if that's too feminist an idea for you.

Catandtwodogs · 20/08/2017 14:24

Where have I said I don't believe the experience of other women?

Ereshkigal · 20/08/2017 14:25

I'll be happy to start with blocking the self ID shite though.

Puffpaw · 20/08/2017 14:25

cat you have indeed proven the op is correct.
I doubt you would like group therapy, it requires empathy and understanding. I'm alright jack doesn't really work in that setting.

SpaghettiAndMeatballs · 20/08/2017 14:25

Why do you assume that every woman is terrified of a humble penis?

I think that rather depends on context, as it does with many things.

I'm not afraid of baseball bats out on a pitch or at the park on a sunny day. If someone approached me in an alley while wielding one, or wandered around the swimming changing rooms whacking it into their hand, I'll feel a bit differently though.

cardibach · 20/08/2017 14:25

Papafran as far as I'm concerned, what is recorded on a birth certificate is sex, not gender. I'm prepared to accept gender can change, but sex can't, unless you can change the genetic composition of every cell in someone's body. I'm not sure the ability to change this item on the birth certificate benefits anyone. There are times, some medical needs, for example, when it is important to know someone's sex.

MaidOfStars · 20/08/2017 14:26

Currently, a GRC gives the holder the right to apply for a new birth certificate showing the new gender
Are you saying that you want the Gender Recognition Act repealed so that transsexual people are still legally known by their birth-gender?
There is no box for 'gender' on a birth certificate. There is no such thing as a 'birth gender'.

I don't see why a GRC isn't sufficient to perform the very job it's supposed to - underwrite an affirmed belief of the holder. Just like a marriage certificate confers a legal status (and, in some cases, protection under equality legislation), why should a GRC not do the same?

Why does a GRC allow the holder to alter a different type of protected characteristic on their birth certificate?

Ereshkigal · 20/08/2017 14:26

And strengthening the position of women in the Equality Act so gender identity doesn't trump sex.

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 20/08/2017 14:27

YetAnotherSpartacus

Deeply self centred, aren't you

Most people I have encountered who think like this were born male and with a dick between their legs. Just saying

That is unwarranted YetAnother C

Cat is coming across as self- centred; but many, many posters on MN do.

This "ooh you must be a man" argument does not strengthen an argument against another poster's point of view. Argue the point- not the poster.

MaidOfStars · 20/08/2017 14:28

Yes, that protection should not come at the expense of another protected group (women), but there must be a way for the two to co-exist
There is, but it starts with the recognition that sex is not gender and gender is not sex.

Gingernaut · 20/08/2017 14:28

Sex ≠ Gender

SmileEachDay · 20/08/2017 14:29

Where have I said I don't believe the experience of other women?

My experience is that having a man as a therapist would have terrified me. You dismissed this as being an imaginative leap you couldn't make.

That's not ok.

Swipe left for the next trending thread