To assume someone who has a gollywog from childhood is racist?

[InigoTaran]

Me and my partner are currently having a discussion about this and he wants to know whether it's true that black people associate gollywogs with racism...?

YABU. If you're assuming that. Golliwogs are heinous and racist and should no longer be a part of childhood. I had a couple as a child, but I am certainly not racist. So yes, to assume that someone who had one as a child is racist is not only unreasonable, but dumb. get over yourself. I was a child. The doll was dumb, and foul, but I didn't know. I'm quite sure my non-white husband and non-white children don't think I'ma racist.

I didn't have one but I used to love the gollywog on the side of the jam jar. I didn't associate it with what it really was. Then again, I grew up at a time when the black and white minstrels were on tv.

Both would be viewed as racist now.

It's no big deal. We're supposedly a bit more civilised now but sometimes when I look at the news I don't think we are.

In that case, anyone who has music by Michael Jackson, Gary Glitter or Lostprophets in their collection are paedophile sympathisers.

Jesus. There's a difference. The point, the raison d'etre, the purpose of gollywogs is to celebrate racial caricature and portray black people as grotesque. They literally have no other function. Whatever about the listed paedos musical output, it didn't exist as a means to promote or celebrate paedophilia.

"When did I say I read other threads about Golliwogs?"

Well you agreed that they come up every 6 months or so.

Nobody, by the way, is suggesting that people who played with them as children are racist.

People who still have them as adults, however......

No Bertrand, I was merely agreeing with the PP that controversial threads come up all the time i.e.: earrings, benefits etc as they noted this particular subject does its rounds. I promise I don't actively search "Golliwogs Mumsnet" - I do have a life. To be honest I'd forgotten about them until I saw this thread which reminded me of mine. Did you have Noddy books? They featured a Golliwog as a character.

Ah yes Raggedy Ann Dolls play upon the biological caricatures of anti-vaxxers, what with their stereotypical red triangular noses and pinafore bodies. It's terrible to see that image kept in existence amid all the work to liberate them from the legal, economic, social, cultural, medical and institutional oppression they are known to experience for no reason at all other than being born in that body in Illinois.

In the tragicomedy that is your reference, and presumably entirely without your knowing, the Raggedy Ann's book feature black stereotypes and were explicitly written to herald "traditional values". Gruelle is known to have cited minstrelsy Take a look at some of Johnny Gruelle's other illustration work, I'd suggest Little Black Sambo, for one. Or how about Cocoa Boy.

You know not of what you speak. Whatsoever.

"Did you have Noddy books? They featured a Golliwog as a character."

No. Because even in the 60s some parents were thinking, intelligent people who knew an offensive stereotype when they saw one.

Too many people not understanding what racism means and falling over themselves in their eagerness to signal their virtues.
^^ Pretty much sums up half the threads on Mumsnet.
Me & my sister had a golly as kids (I may still have it in the box of much loved & therefore kept dolls & soft toys) - I think it was probably passed down from somewhere. But it had that look that a soft toy gets when it's been well-played with & loved - slightly shabby & worn. I never assumed it represented a person - it was just a toy, the same as a teddy bear. If I got it out now (assuming I do still have it) & sat it on the bed it would be because it represented memories from my childhood (and that I felt guilty for it being stuck in a box, away from daylight & squashed by other toys!), not because I was racist. I also had a black doll (who was meant to be more like a person) - I decided she was sister to the white version I already had of the same doll. I didn't care or even notice the different skin colours. They were just toys. I don't see the fuss. Calling someone a golliwog (or worse, the abbreviation) - yes, totally racist (though a bit stupid because you're basically comparing them to someone with a round head, happy face and stripy trousers, and as insults go it's not exactly well-thought out.) But getting angry about reminiscing about a fictional character?

MrsDustyBusty I don't know, certainly in hindsight, lyrics like

Come take a look, because all this could mean, that I Don't really care Who ends up gettin' hurt
(Lostprophets)

And even
"D'you wanna be in my gang?"
sound quite repulsive.

Perceptions change. The Boat That Rocked is not a film watched much nowadays!

Nikephorus, you have it the wrong way round.

The gollywog slur isn't stupid because you're comparing a black person to a round smiley headed face in pinstripes. A gollywog is a depiction of a black person - a caricature intrinsically tied to the degrading, racist societal stereotypes. Using this slur, is inciting this history of this racism against a person.

Also: children are not born racist. Understanding the innocence of childhood and how hopefully you didn't reach maximum understanding of the world during that time, doesn't mean you cannot preserve your idealised memories. You don't need to carry guilt about playing with a gollywog when this was handed to you by an adult when you were a child.

I really don't understand how these cause so much upset. They are cute cuddly toys that kids loved to play with so how is that anti-black? The symbol was used to sell jam so is obviously attractive to people and not anti black. Why would a racist want something so cute? But I'd never buy one in case it did offend anyone.

Achoopichu-can I recommend thinking and using your imagination?
You might like it if you try it.

We were on holiday in Devon last week and several of the seaside gift type shops were selling them, various sized cuddly ones and as keyrings. We had to explain to 15 year old DD what they were. We didnt see anybody buying one but nobody looked particularly horrified either.

rhodanunn How can a golliwog be a depiction of a black person?! Seriously, how many black people have you seen who resemble a golly? Other than short black hair & darker skin, and my golly only has a strip of hair across the top of his head & that's fairly thin & wafty (like the hair of an old person or a baby) so that's not even close. Therefore, if a golly doesn't reasonably depict a black person, it's illogical to use the term as a racial slur.
Besides, the OP was having a fit because her OP has a golly in his house, and (shock, horror) not hidden away. She thinks that's wrong; I think he's got an old loved toy out, in the same way people have an old teddy on their bed.She's trying to make his actions out to be racist when they're not. If anything, she's the racist one because she's associating golly with black people.

I suppose the black and white minstrels and blacking uo in general aren't racist by the same principle?

Nikephosphus- have you ever come across the concepts of caricature and stereotype?
Have you ever wondered why the dolls are called gollyWOGS, and the modern apologists have tried to drop the "wog" bit?

“I actually think lots of non-racist people think they are harmless because they don't see them negatively, but they need to be sensitive to history.”

I agree. When I was little I associated them with just collecting something from the marmalade jars – more like tokens than what they signified. I agree with your points Liiinoo as well. I never associated them with racism as I was too young.

My mum was a refugee from an oppressive regime and was not in the least bit racist, and brought us up to have the same views as her. In fact, one of her neighbours who was from South Africa wouldn’t even talk to her because I had a black friend who used to come and play at our house.

I wouldn't have a problem. To me they aren't racist at all, aside from the name. Even if their original intention was racist, its what you make of them imo. They're just a rag doll. A funny little clown character that happens to be black. I still have all 3 of mine up in the loft. They're sentimental and my kids will probably play with them alongside raggedy Annie and numerous other toys if I were to get them down.

I had one when I was little but he scared me. I didn't know it was meant to be a person - more a made up character like a pixie or sprite. Maybe Noddy was to blame for that. My big sister (now 60) had a black baby doll when she was tiny. It was just a baby doll.

I never associated them with racism as I was too young.

As they say in the bible, "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me."

However, in this case, it reads more like "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became an adult, I hadn't learned a single twatting thing."

"My big sister (now 60) had a black baby doll when she was tiny. It was just a baby doll"

And you really see no difference between a gollywog and a black baby doll?

MrsDusty Please read the rest of my post .

BertrandRussell

People who still have them as adults, however......

So how do you balance that with it being something that is the only thing that you have of a relative?

At this point in time it may well be the only thing that it the memory of a grandparent.

I think that there are several ways of looking at the owners of golliwogs, not all of them make them racist.