There will be no progress until we name the problem

[TinyRick]

worldnewstrust.com/there-will-be-no-progress-until-we-name-the-problem-mickey-z

AIBU to think this article should be shared far and wide?

There is a real problem with Male Violence being swept under the carpet and not addressed fully on news sites and papers.

If we don't say what it actually plainly is then we can't address the real problem.

Urgh...copy fail. But hopefully can read it

Do you genuinely believe it's not?

Rod, tell me you are joking. The conviction and prosecution statistics for rape are a joke. No, I do not believe that sexual crimes are aggressively prosecuted. Most of them go unreported and when they are reported, very few come to court and even fewer lead to a conviction.

But there is a strong rhetoric of poor men being blamed and subjected to trial by media, leading many to say that rape defendants should have anonymity, even though that may prevent further victims coming forward. But the fact that that is seen as fairer just shows where people's priorities lie. There are also those who suggest that rape complainants should be 'named and shamed' to make the system fairer. Another disgusting example of misogyny and a grossly exaggerated issue when it has been shown that the number of false rape allegations is very small.

I would like to see the current practice of allowing men who have sexually abused their children back into said children's homes abolished in law. Currently many areas ask social services to "work with" the families to "help keep families together".

This thread is incoherent. It's a fucking kindgergarten level discussion masquerading as advanced feminist theory.

"I want you all to know that dogs bite. Its really important we acknowledge that dogs bite. And that most bites come from dogs"

And..... ????

Are some dogs more liable to bite than others? Doesn't matter apparently.

Can you mediate the possibility of a dog biting by your behaviour around it? Also doesn't matter.

If dogs bite, but we are incapable for further discussion on why, do we just get rid of all dogs and live in a joyless dog-free land?

No, no stop asking questions. This is all irrelevant. The important thing is that we all hold hands in a circle and repeat the mantra that DOGS BITE. This incredible insight alone will change the world for the better.

You're right OP until we as a society - starting with the media and government and then every agency down to the individual parent and citizen - acknowledge that men are not allowed / supposed / predisposed or naturally violent or entitled to engage in force then this problem will continue. The justice system is just the last straw, it starts in infancy "boys will be boys" being a classic example of role modelling that drip feeds the idea to boys, girls, men and women that males are somehow excusable for violence (in its many forms). Don't even get me started on the idea that "boys shouldn't be sensitive" - it's emotionally conditioning male children to eventually be unhappy at best and violent otherwise. Furthermore, the media doesn't just portray each case of male violence as a stand alone - they also engage in excusing and victim blaming on a horrifying scale! IMO

Dogs don't have the capacity not to bite. They're animals. We are actually giving men a bit of credit saying that as a group they have the capacity to improve their behaviours.

At scatter

Agree scatteroflight and if you are looking at things from the 'how do we reduce crime (or dog bites) or specifically violent crime, one needs to take a considerably more nuanced view.

I think the schism at the heart of this thread ifps whether you measure success by polemic and discourse management, or by amassing evidence on actual interventions to see what works and then making sure the most effecitve ones are used. Personally, I think the second approach has the greater potential for real world change.

Rod, tell me you are joking. The conviction and prosecution statistics for rape are a joke

Of course they Are! Given the overwhelming number of rapes where the victim knows the offender, and that it is very unlikely to have taken part in a public place means it's almost impossible to get a conviction for. It's not a conspiracy, it's purely evidential difficulties. The CPS rarely run with a case unless they're sure of getting it home. (This thankfully is slowly changing)

Can you mediate the possibility of a dog biting by your behaviour around it? Also doesn't matter

Be careful there, scatterolight. What are you in fact saying? From what I can gather:
Some men are more likely to be violent (could you say who these are- are you basing this on race, socio-economic groups, what?)

Women can/should behave in a different way to avoid being victims of violence (could you explain how/in what way)

Women who are concerned about the level of male violence and the extent to which this is normalised and excused by society, the media, the law, are in fact advocating a man-free world (which would be miserable).

Is that what you meant?

It's not a conspiracy, it's purely evidential difficulties

A lot of it is also because of societal/cultural assumptions. For example, we might assume that someone who has been on a date with the defendant or kissed him was more likely to consent to sex. We might assume that someone who has had a drink was more likely to consent. We hear constant reports in the media that women make spiteful rape allegations to get revenge, so that is also in the back of a juror's mind. All of that also influences prosecutors and the jury (much of it on a subconscious level).

Scatter and Viking, you are rather missing the point. The schism at the heart of your argument is why should women have to change their behaviour as opposed to the those males that do perpetrate violent crime?

It's horribly frustrating when you raise the question of male violence. You will get responders denying it, or indulging in whataboutery. Other responders being offended on behalf of men everywhere. Still more trying to extricate the word violence from the word male.

There is a real pushback to the very thought.

And then someone will say well what are you going to do about it, then?

The very first thing to do would be to name it, have people acknowledge it. Have everyone say, yeah you're right, it's so shit.

That alone is a massive, towering hurdle. It's huge. If every single report of violence in the media, male or female, gendered the crime, by saying the word male violence (or female) it would be a gargantuan step forward.

It's this generic term 'violence', that normalises it. That obscures it.

If that stops, the normalisation stops and the scales would fall.

That, all by itself, would be invaluable.

Yes, let's put notices in gents lavatories everywhere, say "violent men, please stop being violent, it isn't very nice." And while we're at it, we can solve all the other problems of the world by putting up notices asking people to be nice to stranges, not to speed, not to take drugs or drink, in fact a blanket "please do not commit any crimes" might be the most efficient use of wall space.

If only internet feminists high tempers and low IQs had existed a century or two ago we could have avoided a couple of world wars.

with high tempers and low IQs

Seeing as police see fit to put up posters telling women not to drink, not to let their friends go home alone, not to take unlicenced cabs etc, I don't see why we shouldn't put posters up telling men what to do for a change Firesuit

Sadly WW's and civil wars are an effective way of dealing with male violence and idleness which breeds violence.

If only internet feminists high tempers and low IQs had existed a century or two ago we could have avoided a couple of world wars

Well luckily, feminists with high tempers did exist, resulting in women actually being classed as citizens for the first time, getting the right to vote less than 100 years ago. Luckily they existed to campaign for reform of marital rape law less than 30 years ago. The point is that social change is possible, but it is very difficult when you are fighting from a disadvantaged position.

I will ignore the dumb comment about low IQ. It's a shame you feel the need to belittle a movement that is fundamentally concerned with making sure that all humans have equal rights.

Yeah, Firesuit, cos the world, and feminists in particular, definitely need more internet snark. It's the most productive, constructive thing I can think of to do.

And while we're at it, we can solve all the other problems of the world by putting up notices asking people to be nice to stranges, not to speed, not to take drugs or drink

Which hole have you been living in where you haven't seen the many, many, many adverts telling people not to speed, not to drink and drive, to wear their seat belts, not to commit benefit fraud, not to commit immigration offences? Why do you think those adverts exist if not to change or influence the behaviour of the population?

And the current methods are working so well aren't they. Maybe it's worth trying the feminist approach as let's face it the murder rate, numbers of rapes etc isn't really a testament to a coherent working strategy.

here is a selection of the posters put up to frighten and control women firesuit. Is this the sort of thing you're thinking of?

www.telegraph.co.uk/art/what-to-see/grayson-perry-whats-gone-wrong-with-men/

Grayson Perry has been talking about it for a while. Hardly anyone else in the media does. I love him for that alone.

I think it does have something to do with the toys that small boys are encouraged to play with. Boys are encouraged to play with toy guns, for example, and enjoy dressing up as soldiers. And they're encouraged to play fight. The films that boys are encouraged to watch as well don't help matters.

Then as teenagers they get sucked in to watching porn, which leads them to view women as sex objects there to gratify their sexual urges.

I might get flamed for saying that, but there has to be a reason why so much violence is perpetrated by men. Boys don't just wake up one day as a violent thug, there is a process of violence being normalised.

Obviously this isn't true of the majority of men, my DH has never been violent either. And equally obviously, there are women who are violent as well, but there's no point in pretending that most violence crimes are committed by men. The prison population numbers are a big clue!

We need to name the problem and spread it far and wide... item 1 of the list in your article..

Men rip apart live chickens and then sexually abuse them.

So the problem is that men are a bunch of mutilated chicken rapists?

When oh when will men roll over and stop their whataboutery, NAMALT and oppression and accept our progressive agenda that they are a bunch of chicken fuckers...