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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

There will be no progress until we name the problem

327 replies

TinyRick · 17/08/2017 14:06

worldnewstrust.com/there-will-be-no-progress-until-we-name-the-problem-mickey-z

AIBU to think this article should be shared far and wide?

There is a real problem with Male Violence being swept under the carpet and not addressed fully on news sites and papers.

If we don't say what it actually plainly is then we can't address the real problem.

OP posts:
TinyRick · 17/08/2017 15:41

worridmum But thieving that I assume you are getting at, is not violent. Stealing from shops for any reason can no way be comparable to women being assaulted/raped/abused regularly. It's just not on the same scale at all.

OP posts:
worridmum · 17/08/2017 15:41

My point about theft being the problem rather than women being the problem. We should look at the causes making women steal aka soical economic problems and deal with them rather that say here look we have a problem its caused by women so they are the problem

birdsdestiny · 17/08/2017 15:41

Ok quite difficult to talk about an issue if we can't use statistics. I blame the problem of violence on people eating yoghurt. I don't have any evidence to back this up but who cares as data is pointless.

Maccapacca88 · 17/08/2017 15:41

Vikingvolva

Does theft include burglary, robbery and mugging? Pretty sure this isn't carried out by mostly females. I don't give a fuck if Linda over the road claims a bit of extra tax credit or Nora from playgroup sneaks an extra pack of bacon from Asda. I do care however when Steve down the road throws acid on an old bloke for a couple of quid because he decided he fancies some smack later.

TheSparrowhawk · 17/08/2017 15:42

'I said it may well be the same rate, as edited in my post after realizing my typing error.
My point is that man do not have the confidence to report abuse that is done by the hands of a women. So I don't trust data that I know is not a true reflection on dv.'

So because there is possibly an unknown number of men who suffer dv at the hands of women, we should ignore the enormous numbers of women who suffer dv at the hands of men? Sorry if I'm misinterpreting you here.

TheEgregiousPeach · 17/08/2017 15:42

Worridmum- Oh, I see what you mean. And I agree we do need to look at the causes of violence to decrease it. Thing is, the majority of violence is perpetrated by men. So it kind of is a male problem. And that doesn't mean I am calling all men violent per se

TheSparrowhawk · 17/08/2017 15:45

'My point about theft being the problem rather than women being the problem. We should look at the causes making women steal aka soical economic problems and deal with them rather that say here look we have a problem its caused by women so they are the problem'

That's exactly what we're doing here worrid. In order to sort out a problem you first have to recognise the factors involved. So pointing out that men tend to commit more violence than women is a first step in understanding why and changing it.

TheSparrowhawk · 17/08/2017 15:47

For the sake of argument here sunshine we could forget about dv and assume that all of the extensive data and research on it is wrong (though I don't know why it would be) and just focus on violent assault by strangers, rape by strangers and murder, all of which is committed by men at a much higher rate than by women and which can't really be hidden from view.

Papafran · 17/08/2017 15:49

This is an extract from an Australian article about DV. It makes a very good point- even when men are the victims of DV, it is a very different kind of violence. It is problematic if we lump together a woman hurling a plate at her partner with a man grabbing a woman by the throat and throttling her. They are both violent but they are not the same and do not have the same impact on the victim (either physical or psychological):

In 2015, the NSW coroner reviewed all intimate partner homicides over the last decade and found no incidents where a woman killed a man because she was a domestic violence offender.

When women did kill their male partner, or ex-partner, it was defensive - he had a history of perpetrating violence against her.

Dr Salter said police and health services reports showed that when a woman was violent against their partner, she was typically either defending herself or her kids.

"There are forms of violence that, simply put, women don't do to men in relationships," he said.

"That includes strangulation, damage to property, the mutilation and killing of pets, and sexual violence in a domestically abusive relationship."

This was backed up by Michael Brandenburg, strategy manager at No To Violence / Men's Referral Service, the peak body for organisations and individuals working with men to end family violence in Victoria and New South Wales. He helps male victims of domestic violence.

"We probably need to get a bit better at defining what we mean by family violence in the context of power, the context of fear," he said.

"Our experience over the last 15-20 years is a lot of women's violence is linked to protecting themselves and protecting their children.

JonnyFunkweasel · 17/08/2017 15:57

I don't do any of those things. What more do you want me to do?

TheSparrowhawk · 17/08/2017 15:58

Nothing Jonny. We'll take care of the women who have been raped, we'll fight for changes in legislation, we'll organise marches, rallies and protests when our rights are denied. You can just do nothing, it's fine.

birdsdestiny · 17/08/2017 15:59

Those organisations who run women's refuges and other agencies who deal with dv are saying clearly and loudly that claiming that women commit dv in the same way as males is wrong and incredibly damaging. Honestly in the current climate they would not make those public statement unless they were very sure of their facts.

Papafran · 17/08/2017 16:02

JonnyFunkweasel did you accidentally put an 'n' instead of a 'c' in your name? I hope you're a troll.

Rodhullstvaerial · 17/08/2017 16:02

we'll fight for changes in legislation
What changes in legislation would you like to see?

TheSparrowhawk · 17/08/2017 16:07

I'd like to see the legislation that says a rape victim's past sexual history can't be brought up in court without good reason be enforced more rigorously. Currently the prosecution has to petition the court to allow it to be included but so many judges allow it that it's a joke. In one case, a child's previous sexual abuse was included as 'evidence of her past sexual history.' So that's one change.

I'd also like to see upskirting (ie taking photos up women's skirts) being treated as a crime. It's not currently treated as one, despite the fact that the motive is sexual and the aim is to violate and humiliate the victim.

I'd also like current legislation (which was fought for by feminists - at no point did any man want this legislation brought in) to be enforced more rigorously so that more sexual crimes are successfully prosecuted.

TinyRick · 17/08/2017 16:07

jonny

But do you do any of these things? (From the article)

Since we now have some don’ts to follow, here are a few things we cando:

Listen to, validate, respect, appreciate, trust, defend, and learn from females.

Discover how to be silent, how to relinquish the spotlight, the stage, the microphone, the platform.

Do the work to educate ourselves and learn to recognize the deeper connections, the roots.

Commit to addressing and surrendering all the socialization and privilege that automatically comes along with being born male.

Reject the masculinity paradigmand stop conforming to macho ideals and conditioning.Identify.

Unlearn. Evolve. (Each day, every day.)

Share what you learn with boys and young men to give them a real chance to be better.

OP posts:
Collidascope · 17/08/2017 16:09

Not sure if it's technically legislation, but I'd like tougher sentences (not just a few weeks suspended) when men attack women. I'd like prior rape convictions and even prior accusations of rape to be allowed as evidence in court. Admittedly that's not foolproof, but when it's as difficult as it is to get a conviction for rape, that seems like a start. I also think until we've sorted out our society's acceptance of rape myths, it should perhaps be judges who reach a verdict in a rape trail rather than a jury.

Papafran · 17/08/2017 16:11

What changes in legislation would you like to see?
Stronger sentencing for intimate partner violence in the same way that racially aggravated offences are seen as more heinous
Much stronger prohibition on the use of previous sexual history evidence in rape trials- the Ched Evans case demonstrated that courts often see unexceptional cases as exceptional
Greater use of curfew orders for violent offenders

That's just in the criminal law area. More is needed in other areas- e.g. equal parental leave provisions, more state funded childcare for young children, proper state subsidies paid to carers to avoid women becoming financially dependent on men (in turn making them more likely to be DV victims). Loads of stuff still to be done. Equality does not always mean 'same treatment'. That is no good if we are starting from unequal positions.

Rodhullstvaerial · 17/08/2017 16:11

I agree with your first 2 paragraphs

I'd also like current legislation (which was fought for by feminists - at no point did any man want this legislation brought in) to be enforced more rigorously so that more sexual crimes are successfully prosecuted

Do you genuinely believe it's not?

Collidascope · 17/08/2017 16:12

I'd also like to see the Nordic model re. prostitution brought in.

TheSparrowhawk · 17/08/2017 16:12

Rod, it's worth noting that until 1991 it was entirely legal for a man to rape a woman, as long as that woman was his wife. Once a woman signed marriage papers she then lost all control over her body - provided he didn't do actual bodily harm, a man could pin his wife down and do whatever he liked to her sexually and the law said that was fine. Men had no interest in changing that law - they saw nothing at all wrong with it. It was feminists who had to fight and argue for the right for women not to be raped. I don't know about you but that's a tough one for me to wrap my head around.

TinyRick · 17/08/2017 16:13

So I take it Jonny (as you said as much) you don't do this -

*Don’t jerk off topornography;

don’t accept the postmodern mantras aboutprostituted women/girlsand “choice,” and don’t eroticize pain, fear, and shame viaBDSMand “kink.”

Don’t tellmisogynist jokesor use misogynist language or allow other men to do so in your presence.

Don’tharass, cat call, stare (“male gaze”),mansplain, ormanspread.Don’t ever say"not all men"and don’t engage inpatriarchal reversals.*

?

OP posts:
Rodhullstvaerial · 17/08/2017 16:13

Sorry meant to add, do you see that as a legislation issue or a sentencing problem?

TheSparrowhawk · 17/08/2017 16:14

'Do you genuinely believe it's not?'

Sorry, do I genuinely believe it's not what?

Rodhullstvaerial · 17/08/2017 16:14

I find it unbelievable that it only happened in my life time Sparrow, yes.