To think people underestimate impact of advantages

[brasty]

I think lots of people underestimate the impact of advantages in their life.
So having parents who value education and encourage you.
Having parents who find the best school for you.
Having loving parents who create a loving environment to grow up in.
Getting help with house deposits.
Having a parent who will help you out when things go wrong.

All or some of these things makes it so much easier to have a good life. Yet so many people underestimate the impact.

I think the family is used as a (very evil) pivot in these things. The goodness of love - "I want my kids to do well" - is converted into an exclusive and elitist practice - "I want my kids to do well and that means other kids not doing so well". Anyone who pays for private education/tuition that will help their kids over the majority who cannot afford advantage is doing this. It. Is. Wrong.

Bemused, I don't know where to begin with that.

I do agree with this in principle but on the other hand, I know people who have had the most dreadfully disadvantaged starts in life and have developed incredible levels of resilience. They have then gone on to succeed far beyond people with privileged lives.

I dunno. I see what Blackberry is saying and it echoes the Economist article upthread. Basically, once one generation of a family "makes it", they then find it easier to maintain that position over successive generations. However, it's the basest human instinct so I don't see any way of stopping it, only weakening the impact.

Fascinating thread OP.

I came from a relatively "poor" family but with parents who had an incredible work ethic - I think that also makes a huge difference. Unemployment breeds unemployment in that it is seen as the norm whereas if you see your parents work, you will go on to think that is the norm.

My parents also encouraged me in everything and because of my age and the happy accident of me being born in the UK, I got a full grant to go to university and have had what basically boils down to a fairly easy existence. However, I never take this for granted, I am grateful every day for the advantages I have in life and hope that we "pay this forward" (wow I hate that expression but not sure how else to put it) with what we give and what we do.

I think there is a lot of luck involved in success too.
Luck that the economy was doing well so people were hiring,
Luck that someone retired leaving a job vacancy that you were able to apply to
Luck that your DH works in an industry that enable him to help with childcare
Luck that the sector your skills are in demand for is increasing
Luck that your parents are healthy and you can rely on them for childcare
Luck that you have been healthy
Luck that your employment history has not been damaged by repeated lay offs
Now I think if it, luck is a huge factor.

Yes there is luck.

Yes there are people from disadvantaged backgrounds that do well.

BUT there are also a whole range of statistical correlations that show that, on average, you are likely to battle harder to get on if you come from a poor background. Exceptions and outliers and fortunate happenstance do not change this.

It is more like a spiral than luck.

And once you're on an upward spiral ypu don't come out unless to a downward one.

I have a friend who was helped massively with a house deposit (we're talking about 100k, she admitted this). She would then make a lot of comments about me "still renting", I'm going back to the late 90's here.
She'd also totally overlook the fact her father would come running at her beck and call to do all house repairs/ decorating too. She always overlooked her good fortune in this respect when looking down on others less fortunate.

Bemused, it's not "wrong" because we all want the best for our kids, and we want their lives to be easier than ours, so we make sure they are as well fed, as well schooled and as physically and emotionally healthy as we can. You wouldn't say oh well, just because inadequate parent down the road neglects her child I should do the same to make things equal. Some people hand privilege to their kids on a plate, and some people manage to hand it to their kids on a saucer and some people don't hand anything to their kids at all. And it isn't fair, but it isn't wrong.

brasty "Too many people who have no idea how many advantages they have actually had."

yes. and sheer bloody luck as well. I have a couple of friends who don't believe in luck, only "hard work". When I point out to them that I didn't even fully fit the criteria for my current job, they just shrug. But that is called luck. (my boss needed someone with qualities that you can't put in a job ad, e.g. good at dealing with big egos and saying no - apparently something in my application made her think I'd be good at that.)

my friends think I matched a subliminal message in the ad or whatever. Absolute bollocks. Also, when I went for my interview, we just liked each other. Sheer luck.

I suppose it's because some people want to take credit for everything and not address any "chance" factor like whether or not you had a good upbringing.

"You wouldn't say oh well, just because inadequate parent down the road neglects her child I should do the same to make things equal."

No, I'd say that we take the money off you in tax and redistribute it to equalise the playing field as much as possible.

cowgirlsarefoever Yes some people do start life with all the odds stacked against them, and have happy personal lives and successful careers. But these are a tiny minority. All the stats show that social mobility has declined over the last 30 years.

For the majority of people, the advantages or disadvantages you are born with, do affect you all of your life.

This doesn't mean that people who are born with all the advantages never have anything bad happen to them. They still have bereavements, illnesses, disabilities, victims of crime, and all the things that can happen to anyone. But they will also be in a better situation to cope with these things whether through money or family support.

head I also think "you make your own luck" is partly true BUT (before you punch me) your upbringing hugely impacts your ability to make good choices and the quality of the guidance you receive at key junctions

e.g. Many women are negatively impacted by their choice of partner/husband but if they have grown up with their dad basically treating their mum like a slave or worse, they are not necessarily equipped to make a good choice (normalisation again).

More benignly, not choosing junk A-levels, knowing that you don't need a degree in accountancy to be an accountant, not thinking journalism is a good career.

But bemused families help in other ways, not just at the point of education.
I qualified at the same time as my friend.
Her mother stepped in to provide childcare for unsocial shifts. We didn't earn enough to hire a nanny!
I was unable to do that so my "career" - I only class it as a job these days as I never got off the starting block.

As someone in my mid 50s, I also hate reading adults congratulating themselves on training for an industry that is doing well. When I was 16 the industries that were predicted to be safe bets for the future, weren't. Computing was the big thing, but a lot of jobs have been outsourced abroad.
Also lecturing was seen as a great job. That was before the massive expansion of higher education that means many university lecturers are in insecure contracts, with massive workloads. It used to be a pretty easy number.
And some jobs that are no secure and well paid, did not exist when I was young.

Head This kind of comes back to what I was saying. If someone had pointed out to you that you should wait till you earned more to start a family, or that it wasn't a good career choice for childcare considerations, do you think that would have made you act differently?*

I was fortunate to be advised to do chartered accountancy after Uni vs. advertising. best. advice. ever (albeit social death- ha ha)

I do think you do make a little bit of luck, by making good choices, but I do think luck has more a part to play that people realise, or want to give credit for.

I wasn't selected for a job as someone else applied who had done the job before was chosen. Otherwise apparently they would gave hired me. Another job like that hasn't come up in several years. Luck really.

I do agree with this in principle but on the other hand, I know people who have had the most dreadfully disadvantaged starts in life and have developed incredible levels of resilience

It is possible for individuals to find a way to crowbar footholds into a better life. Depending on your understanding of a disadvantaged start, I might count as one of them, I certainly meet the op's criteria.

But being able to find those stepping stones is difficult and when you do, they are fickle.

When I was at school a friend and I were living similar shitty lives. We were both smart and were able to go to uni because they were free back in the olden days and we even got a grant. We both moved to London with nothing and did what we could with a lack of resources, money and contacts. We both got married and had children. We both have a chronic illness.

As I write this it sounds like I'm making this up. Disregard it if you like, it is still true.

I'm living far more comfortably than she is simply because the advances in medicine which means that my chronic illness can be controlled and hers cannot. Which means that I am not permanently exhausted, so I can work easily, so I am not dependent on the government, so I can take more risks in things like making small investments and buying property, that have netted benefits, which means that, although we cannot afford private school for our three children we can afford a tutor and my children are doing very well at school. At this point, who knows what is ahead but I am optimistic about my future but my friend is not.

I remember as a small child thinking how lucky I was that I had been born into the best country in the world. I still think that.

A couple of months ago I talked to a young man from a very wealthy family who was telling me all about how hard work will get you anywhere and benefits in UK are too generous, when all you need to do is work hard and you will be fine. Yesterday I learned that he has just been offered a job at quite senior level without any qualifications or experience. The person who gave him the job was director of the company and yes, a friend of the young man's family... No doubt the youngster thinks he deserves it and others who don't have such a good job just haven't tried enough...

cantsee I initially trained specifically for an industry that literally went abroad. So when I retrained DH was able to help with childcare up until the point he was made redundant....his new job which he had to take as its very limited field no longer enabled help with childcare...

So yes, you can make good choices, but it doesn't always work out. I applied for many accountancy trainee positions after uni but no one wanted me! So again sometimes it is luck, right place, right time even if you are doing your best.

I should add that it wasn't an advertised position either. Just a role created purely for him

thanks head. Apologies if that came across as "you should have done accountancy"- it wasn't intended. Just a point that 21 year old me would have made a pretty poor career choice without expert guidance.

I cone from a disadvantaged background.

Through a mixture of skill, talent, hard graft and of course luck I have done well in life.

I have spent the last 18 years giving my DC every possible advantage I could. Is that something to be proud of or ashamed of?