To think people underestimate impact of advantages

[brasty]

I think lots of people underestimate the impact of advantages in their life.
So having parents who value education and encourage you.
Having parents who find the best school for you.
Having loving parents who create a loving environment to grow up in.
Getting help with house deposits.
Having a parent who will help you out when things go wrong.

All or some of these things makes it so much easier to have a good life. Yet so many people underestimate the impact.

I think brasty's original list was pretty good, as it lists emotional and educational support, and financial support.

So all count as advantages. And all are easy to take for granted - until they're not there.

HeadoftheHive that's really interesting that your dad was unqualified but his income was so large his contribution to your grant was zero.

Both my parents had OU degrees and I still got a grant. Most years it was full grant, because my sister was at university at the same time.

What kind of financial barriers are people encountering to university? I would like to learn more about this. I got into a top uni and my fees were covered by student loans, plus my college paid for my food and rent via a redistribution scheme. My mother didn't have to pay anything. Are student loans not sufficient for people to live on? Do they not cover food etc? (No sarcy tone intended, genuine request to learn more, have not been involved with student finance for a long time).

ilove
I didn't go to uni for financial reasons. My parents were supporting one sibling at uni, we were eligible for some small grants but not all. My parents were already over stretched they couldn't (and I wouldn't) stretch them more.
Uni would support more if my parents "disowned" me, well they weren't going to do that.

I also had no advice or support about student loans, I lived in an affluent area it wasn't talked about. No one discussed how it works. Early internet days so little research available and just assumptions I wouldn't be eligible.

I was also first few years of fees, so add that onto a course only available miles away with accommodation etc etc.
It wasn't an option

I see - that's bad of your school not to make your options known, I certainly wouldn't have gotten to university without my loans. I would think almost all kids today know about student loans though?

ilove currently all students are entitled to a loan which covers all their fees.

However the living expenses loan is means tested. Every student will receive a minimum loan but that won't be enough to actually live on. So parents tend to supplement it.

Of course some parents can't or won't.

However the living expenses loan is means tested. Every student will receive a minimum loan but that won't be enough to actually live on. So parents tend to supplement it.

Has this led to an increase in students staying at home for Uni? When I went to Uni (in the last millennium!) fewer people went but almost everyone left home and went to the Uni that they thought was the best for them. I wonder if more students are choosing to live at home now for financial reasons which seriously limits their choice of Uni unless they live somewhere like London or Manchester.

chazs it's difficult to say, because so many more students go to university now, that of course there will be more stay at homers.

However, what we do know is that it's opening up a two tier system.
Some universities have relatively few stay at homers. These universities will tend to be the most selective and the most well regarded.
Those that have higher rates of stay at homers tend to be less selective and less well regarded.

We can all guess where the most well off kids end up...

(Of course there are certain exceptions and vagaries here).

I did wonder if a two tier system was developing so I am not surprised to see that is the case. I know of a family member who has gone to the local OKish ex poly so he can stay at home when he really had the ability and grades to go to a better recognised Uni for his subject.

Yes, that's a pattern forming.

Young people attending their local universities even though they could aim higher.

Yet, I don't know if even one of my DC's peers who are going to do this. Even those who will attend universities in London still go into halls ( despite living close by).

I found university a very gentle way to leave home as you are in a relatively supported environment so I will be encouraging my DC not to stay at home but to go to the university that best suits them. I would expect that the same will be true of their peers and my colleagues children. (I work in the City so this completely fits with the two tier model).

I was one of the last tier of no-fees students, but we had no housing money, and living expenses were indeed means-tested. My parents were not big earners, in fact my Dad was already on an early pension, but I still got a reduced amount, about 2/3 of the full amount. This wasn't enough for me to "live out", so I had to stay at home and use it all on train fare. I also had a Saturday job and had a boyfriend who subbed me for all social things. My parents, on paper, looked like they could afford to help me out but actually couldn't - which was fine, I got by with other help.

But it certainly affected my choices in terms of which university to go to.

My DP works in a university, former poly. Nearly all the students live at home and have part time jobs. One of the issues DP regularly deals with are students working too many hours, struggling to do their studies and/or being really tired in class. They are all doing their best to improve their life, but have a very different experience of university than those living in halls, with no or very part time work.

One of the aspects that is sometimes overlooked is the impact of academic ability on people's prospects in life. People do not start from the same base level of ability. Comparing children from similar backgrounds, it is evident from a young age that all children develop at different rates and have different ways of thinking. "Good" schools will support all children to develop their abilities and learn at their own pace. However, even then, some of them will be able to achieve far better results and show a more natural aptitude for certain academic subjects.

It is those children (who have had a combination of support at home and school, as well as having some natural academic ability) who will tend to go on to the best universities and most intellectually demanding careers. Many of those careers really do pay more because there is only a small number of people with the education and aptitude to do them to the highest levels.

There are plenty of children (particularly in less academic private schools) who have been given all the same advantages, but who are not capable of thinking and performing in the way that is needed for some professions. They are the ones who tend to use family contacts / money in order to set themselves up in privileged careers but not necessarily ones where they will earn huge salaries.

At the other end of the scale are children who have had massive disadvantages that mean that they are already behind academically by the time they start school at 5. No matter their "natural ability", those children will always find it harder to catch up and to compensate for their school or home life. Some manage to do it, but many potentially brilliant minds are lost.

I think that a lot of the people who see themselves as deserving of their high paid careers are the ones in the first category above - they compare themselves to their similar circle of peers and conclude that, because they have always been the highest achievers and possibly worked harder in exams etc throughout their lives, they are deserving of their success. Even if they appreciate that there are huge numbers of people who were born with the same "natural" ability, they might think that certain disadvantages can't be compensated for at the stage of university or when starting a career. The number of "lost" brilliant minds means that there is a smaller number of people capable of doing certain jobs, and therefore the inequality becomes increasingly entrenched.

*But there was nothing to stop any 17 year old childless person doing what I did which was walking into shops and cafes and asking if they needed anyone.

Others have already listed numerous reasons which might indeed stop a 17-year-old from being able to do just that, so I won't repeat those. But also, times have changed and I think a lot of 17 year olds would struggle to find a cafe or shop willing to take on staff that young nowadays*

I was talking about when I left school.

I grew up in a 2 bed +1 box room council house with gps and 3 sets of couples. My bed was the sofa so I couldn't go to bed till the adults went. Interestingly my cousin who also lived there has done even better than me where as the children who were born later there is a sliding scale to how their lives have turned out.

My cousin when he left school had a choice of many courses. All the same course run in different areas of the college and several colleges doing the same course so that was his advantage. Ds atm is looking at colleges for a similar course and whilst I see all around me the huge numbers of places to do English Maths and academic subjects when it comes to more practical subject they are very few. In my area there are only 2 courses to take up this non academic subject ds wants to qualify in.

Completely agree, a lot of people I know have had a lot of advantages in life and don't see it as a big deal at all and definitely don't see how it has enabled them to have certain lives. Therefore they don't understand at all when people who haven't had all the above aren't 'progressing' as quickly as them. I have personally been fortunate in quite a few of the above (not on a massive scale or anything but on the scale all the same) and genuinely feel emotional when I think of how much of an impact it has had on my life and my child's life, I know to no end how lucky I am and will be forever grateful to my parents for sacrificing stuff for my future. Love love love them.

I work in the tech industry and automation is already disrupting lives. There are machines already building brick walls in a day which labourers traditionally do in weeks. The bottom end and cheaper labour including many white collar paper shuffling desk base jobs will be gone by the time our children are adults. This is such a serious matter that think tanks and companies with a conscious are looking at ways to resolve this massive issue of employability, lack of rather. The jobs of tomorrow are data driven jobs. Those who haves technical and mathematical backgrounds. I'm pushing my kids very hard to get good grades in hard science subjects. Just to ensure they have jobs available to them in the future. It's a one horse race and quite frankly, I think the generation of tomorrow are going to be fucked if they don't actually now. I'm now going into schools as a STEM ambassador and telling them where the jobs will be by the time they graduate.

The delta of unfair home advantages is going to be much harder to resolve in the future.

cookie our schools are struggling massively with science at the moment. Not enough science teachers teaching science. I know of a secondary school locally with not one qualified science teacher, it's other subject teachers like English and pe taking the lessons.

I really struggle with this as a society people need jobs to not only pay their way but self esteem, mental health etc etc but everyone has different talents and skills. We need to make sure there are jobs for all not just academics

A student taught by someone who is not excited about science, is surely less likely to enthuse students?
I went to a Brian Cox lecture and it was so interesting. But that was partly his sheer enthusiasm for the subject.

Most of my friends were given a deposit for a house by their parents. My question is, does the parent usually offer this or does the son / daughter ask?
Dad has stacks of money, but I've just never asked... I don't always see the connection between his wealth & me. Maybe it's because I left home young, and most of my mates were at home until they were pushing 30?

I'm in NSW in Australia - our local high school has ONE decent maths teacher, and he's fighting the rest of the faculty. The principal says there are no decent maths teachers at high school level, not ones that want to stay in the job anyway (and who can blame them really?)
They don't even have a proper curriculum or text book for the higher levels at high school!!

Given the way the world is going, this neglect of maths at high school level is ludicrous! Of course, the Principal could be being rather inventive with the truth, as the local school isn't great in terms of demographic - but he's not lying about the curriculum/text book situation. :(

kick We need to make sure there are jobs for all not just academics
Well unfortunately, it doesn't work like that, although I'd love for it to be so. I now work for large multi-nationals and my background is working for the big silicon valley giants. The ones that are creating the jobs are entrepreneurial. They are there to make money in the fastest, leanest way possible and aren't there to provide jobs for all. And they often have extremely good academic backgrounds including strong maths.

Re OP's original post. I do agree, far too many people under appreciate the advantages they have or have had. But having said that, I also believe it is what you do with that advantage that matters, however small or indirect it might be.
I had no advantage other than a mother who valued education and did her best to drive that within us. Even when we had no roof over our heads and my mum was very ill. My brother & I both worked hard and did very well, whereas my sister could never be bothered to even try. We now live lives that reflect that.
My sister in laws on a different scale, have had every imaginable advantage...wealthy parents who have not just paid deposits, but bought the house! Bought their cars, banned them from ever having a job at school or uni...for fear it would detract from their studying. They weren't particularly bright, and their well connected Dad helped them with getting their college places, eventually getting a job, and basically every aspect of their lives. And that too is very much reflected in their physce, they have been 'operated' for so long, they are incapable of functioning without their input. Advantage on that scale, is not necessarily a good thing.

I have been in the extremely lucky position to give my 4dc all the love and support that my husband and I can. It's a team effort and hard work but I know it's made easier because we have financial and emotional security. My dc don't always appreciate all that we do and I think that makes them normal but I'm sometimes sad when I hear them complain - the older they get I hope they understand more.