... to think it slightly odd that so many of my school mum friends are hung up about secondary schools already, when their kids are only 5!

[sandyballs]

It seems to be the sole topic of conversation lately - how good/bad the local comp is, how extra tuition will be needed for the local grammar etc etc.

The kids are 5/6 years old! Let them be kids!

I'm sure our parents never had all this school angst!

Ooh, my stepson goes to Manchester Grammar School. This is why my husband drives a 14 year old car with the wing mirror held on with Ductape.

Not too soon to worry about Secondary Schools, a bad comprehensive is a toxic environment, a good one is as good as, or better than private. But a lot could change in seven years. Forget about it until they're 9 or 10, then start to worry like hell, I've been there, it's horrible.

Chattea has made a very valid point that I think has been largely overlooked due to Xenia's inflammatory comments which have led this thread off at a tangent.

The point of the OP was not how selective we are of our schools, but that we are so insanely chasing success for children that we forget to allow them to be children. I personally think we place far too much emphasis on formal education at the expense of actually living. As I said about my Dad in an earlier post, he was expelled at 15, has no academic qualifications, but is a fairly wealthy man of the highest intellect and immense knowledge, none of which he was taught at school. I also have a cousin with a Masters degree. He too is highly intelligent and full of 'cleverness' but the most spectacularly un-successful human being. Now in his late 30's he is so institutionalised by academia that he is almost unable to function amongst non-academics. That is not a success story, IMO.

GOH - you are absolutely right about over-institutionalisation of children (and adults). That is the main reason why I am so opposed to crèches and nurseries that institutionalise children from the earliest age - what hope of becoming a fully feeling human being when you have been moulded into a set of socially-defined behaviour patterns from your earliest weeks?

One of the reasons I look so far ahead for my daughter's education is precisely so that I can avoid, as far as possible, the type of school I abhor that moulds children to a particular social class in a specific culture, and ensure she leaves school at 18 with as wide an experience of the world as possible.

Anna, I assume you are in a large city. In this town, you either get

a. The acceptable comprehensive

or

b. The unacceptable comprehensive.

There is an expensive private school outside the town, but as far as choice goes, that's it.

Still, at least it means I don't have to think about where my DDs will go

Yes, I live in Paris.

Though that doesn't mean there is oceans of choice, far from it. The French national curriculum is applied in EVERY school, state or private, and it is very restrictive.

However there are a handful of bilingual schools that, for a variety of reasons, manage partially to get around the national curriculum. They are hard to get into, fee-paying and require a lot of parental chauffeuring (no school transport). But they are also excellent. The one I want my daughter to go to has 66 nationalities, teaches in French and English, starts Chinese in primary school and a fourth language at age 11 (among other great things).

I met a mum of a four month old the other day (same age as my DS) and she has already had her daughter accepted into a high school.

And it's actually the one I went to....

I felt bad that I don't have my boys down anywhere yet, but I did look at the websites of some of the ones we are interested in for them, and it looks like we don't have to worry till they're in about grade 5.

I also wonder - these parents who plan so early - how on earth do they know where they will be in 12 - 13 years' time? Or even that the school will be suitable for them? For it's worth, if I ever have a girl, I wouldn't send her to the school I went to .

I dream of diversity like that! Schools are so much better when they pay more attention to the greater world rather than just chasing academic results.

I grew up in London, and perhaps my expectations of life are a little high, but I think it was because I was exposed to so much, living in a city. There is jsut such a small-minded feeling here, and maybe people with lower expectations are happier people, but I find myself craving new experiences and always moaning about the lack of anything to do around here. I am a malcontent. There, I've admitted it.

Not sure if it has much to do with this thread, though..

Sorry, x posts

GOH - no, your expectations are not too high. It is human nature to want to progress and see more, and it is extremely difficult to reduce the size and variety of your world too early in life. Some people never even recover after taking retirement and moving to the countryside - they were too young to reduce the stimulation of town and work.

And I think that your post does have quite a lot to do with the thread. Choice of school and looking ahead for one's children is about providing them with opportunities in life. Parents differ hugely as to what they want those opportunities to be - there are the Xenia's of this world who crave the perfect upper-middle class lifestyle (and think that everyone else should be hankering after it too) and there are parents who want their children to join the family business and there are plenty who don't care much, and acres in between.

You seem to be feeling limited by the opportunities that your current life affords you, so you dream of a school that would offer your children more opportunities. Quite normal.

I actually love living in the countryside, and find that it offers so much, especially to children. My 12 y-o DD has been helping to deliver foals on the Stud here and has been exposed to so many facets of life and death that she is the most practical person ever. It is the small-town attitude I don't like, where options are so limited and everybody has to fit in with being a certain way and if you don't, you are stigmatised. Away from the town it is OK, and you can be who you like, but we need the town for too many things. I always said that it was too big to be personal and friendly, but too small to be anonymous. It offers next to nothing in the way of life experiences but I am fortunate enough to be able to take my DDs to other places and experience different things. We have lived in the Middle East, spent large amounts of time in the US and invariably spend much time in London. I am aware not to over-parent my children, and like to allow them as much freedom as possible. As we have a large yard of racehorses and the associated gallops, bridle ways etc we are very lucky to be able to let them roam and get about. The best things my children experience do not come from school, but I would love for them to be offered more at school. I am really deviating from the thread now!

"lower expectations" ? Perhaps just different ones? I am not ambitious academically per se for my kids but I don't have low expectations for them in general. I can provide a lot for my children that the schools don't. I expect to do that. I think a child is impoverished if the only place they are ever challenged is in the school.

I am quite a contented person but my expectations of life are not low. I do not need to be constantly provided with the new though. It does help to be able to find the best in everything wherever you are and whoever you are with.

I think the countryside is great for children too and affords them all sorts of freedoms that the city never can. It is one of the regrets that I have for my daughter, living as we do in the centre of a large city, though we are fortunate that my parents live in a great part of England surrounded by farms and we can spend our holidays there.

Generally I find COUNTRY people fine, very realistic about life, but SMALL TOWN people pretty dreadful. And, yes, very hard to live in the countryside without getting involved with small town people.

Life is never perfect.

What I meant by Lower expectations is exactly what you have gone on to describe - only expecting to be challenged at school. I consider lower expectations in life to be those kind of people for whom going to the same pub every Saturday is enough for them. I have admitted I am a malcontent, and always looking for ways to enrich my life. Perhaps it is because I have not had much success (we move around alot, and each place we move is a bit worse than the last) and I have to go further afield for anything remotely challenging. Don't get me wrong, I actually envy those with lower expectations of life - it beats the constant quest I seem to be on, anyway.

I am not going to get involved in this really but I would just like to say that Xenia for a person who obviously feels very highly about oneself you are incredably narrow minded conceited and down right rude. Maybe these so called "higher level schools" should teach it pupils some manners!! If you are anything to go by.

Ooh this is an interesting thread!

I went to the type of school that Xenia is talking about from the age of 6 to 18. Very middle class, top competative all girls private school. I used to really enjoy chain-smoking with my friends and getting drunk at lunch time. I also enjoyed spending afternoons skiving with my older boyfriend at the age of 15, he did roll a good joint among other talents.He went to the local comp .

But,importantly, I did speak very nicely and lived in a nice detatched house with very nice middle class parents (who had no idea that her daughter was such a tarty pot head)!!

Hey mums2sons - were you at my school? Or perhaps all girls private schools are like that ....

Agree with ejt1764. When they start up the conversation again, profess to "hearing something" from a friend in the LEA about the teething problems they are having starting up the lottery admissions system in your area for a couple of years time. Me thinks flurry of "For sale" signs will go up.

I reckon they are all v similar Ormirian!! Mine was in a Cathedral town...

It is because of my school that I have decided my boys will go to the local state schools (my big boy is doing v well at a lovely school).

At least I know they will probably get all the nice middle class private school girls!!

Same here mums2sons. The local state schools would have to be a hell of a lot worse before I'd consider private schooling. Added to that I couldn't afford it anyway.

realised I should have said fewer expectations, rather than lower. I did not mean to sound patronising and if I did, I am sorry.

At least with state schools, the children have a diverse range of people to make friends with. At our state school we have excellent teachers, really good ways to tackle things like bullying and v good leadership.

At my school, most of the teachers did not have their PGCE and were not taught to teach. They also could not handle naughty, truanting, smoking, drinking, shagging schoolgirls ! The amount of teachers who used to be scared of us was crazy and enabled us to go completely wild. If my freinds and I had gone to state schools we would have never got away with such appalling behaviour!

Why do so many peoplle want to do things differently from their parents then? You go to a good private school so you send your children to a state school etc etc Is it rebellion or do you think everyone who goes to those schools on here didn't think they were good schools and wishes their children have a different kind of education? I don't think any of my children if asked (the 3 at university) would say they didn't like Habs, NLCS etc. They were nice rounded schools and I think they allow the child to be a child in a nice environment, loads of hobbies, sports so you can find your niche whether it's recorder or netball, stamp collection or chess. I like those schools because they do let the child develop all round and I never felt at 5 years old the children were being pushed at all.

I would say you can let them be kids better in a school which suits them - so if they're fairly clever children they can thrive (and remember children love learning unless parents put them off) and relax in a school where there is no graffiti, violence, problems and they can play and learn and have a lovely time. I liked having lakes and fields in school grounds, a kind of lovely backgrop for an education.

The other interesting point is about town and country I suppose. In London you just have more choice of schools; elsewhere there isn't the choice unless you want to send them away to board, which in some ways presumably makes it easier.

Choice of school in the country varies - there are parts of England (in commuterland, but the countryside) where there is excellent choice of both state grammar and private, with lots of IB schools, private schools for the less academic. Where there's money there's choice.

The state school my son goes to has lovely grounds, an abundance of after school and lunchtime clubs. He plays football, rugby, hockey (school teams and out of school football) and is in a swimming squad. He goes to Scouts and has lots of friends (all v nice despite being in state education! ). He is also doing well academically and excells in English and Maths (V proud mummy ).

On a recent school trip to France the children were sharing the chateux with another school which happened to be private. Some of the private school children looked down their noses at the state school kids so much that the teachers from the private school had to have many firm words with their pupils and seperate them from our children. That kind of snobbery is learnt behaviour and disgusts me frankly.

I am not rebelling by sending my son to a state school but having lived through the reality of 12 years of private school myself, I feel in a very good position to be able to make this decision.

I'm not rebelling at all. I respect and admire my parents and am eternally grateful for the upbringing they gave. But I personally feel that my private education was a mistake. I did well academically but I'm arrogant enough to think that assuming I went to a reasonable state school (as I would have done living where we did) I would still have done well. But socially it crippled me. Local kids thought I was a snob, kids I was at school were so much richer and socally confident than I was. I didn't have the confidence to combat the stereotypes.