Oxbridge degrees - worth it?

[Pombearsandnaiceham]

What do you think? Would be interested to hear your thoughts :)

I went to Oxford. Studied PPE. Absolutely loved loved loved it. It was challenging academically but serious fun. Anyone who actually went there will realise that it's neither full of "posh" people nor nerds. It is full of interesting, hardworking, fun people who party pretty hard. Made friends for life, met my husband and have got an interview for every job I have ever applied for. Ps I went to a state school.

Moral: You don't need an Oxbridge degree to succeed.

However when it come to Law in particular it conveys a significant advantage

www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firms-preferred-universities

That is heartening to hear 5second. This thread is so elitist and snobby. It's hardly surprising that DD won't even consider Oxbridge.

She would feel so out of her depth to hear people boasting how easy A levels are and how confident Oxbridge students are.

This thread is so elitist and snobby

Can you point out where this has been the case?
If anything this thread has been full of Ox grads saying how difficult they found it to just maintain an average grade.

Skimmed the thread but from own personal experience...

Having done a small amount of recruiting, having Oxbridge on your CV is more likely to land it in the 'must take to next stage' pile but, after that, you're on level footing. I've taken on some VERY good people from Oxbridge but, at the same time, I've met some people who I was half surprised managed to dress themselves in the morning. Also, after you've gathered a certain amount of experience, everybody gets more wowed by that than where you went to uni (in my industry, I think after you've clocked up 5 years or so, your degree might as well might scrawled on the back of a cereal box because nobody seems to care anymore!).

I've also had friends/friends of friends who found Oxbridge very tough and struggled with mental health issues BUT the same can be said of a lot of the RG unis. I think it's something about being away from home for the first time and potentially going from a situation where you were one of the top of the class to being just being one of hundreds of equally talented people - I think that's going to mess with any young adult's head!

And, like others have pointed out, Oxbridge is great for most subjects but there are the odd one or two where Oxbridge don't offer the best education for that field any so I'd be wary of that.

Long story short - It doesn't hurt to go and, if you can, I would but I wouldn't exactly say it's the be all and end all either.

I don't think anyone is saying you NEED an Oxbridge degree to get a training contract at a MC firm, clearly lots of people do who didn't go to Oxbridge (although PP suggest the balance of Oxbridge to other RG universities is more stark for pupillages vs law firms)


At least in my day however, Oxford got first pick. The MC firms came to Milkround and wined and dined final year students (most of us just went along for the free drinks)



A very large number of my fellow historians went along for the free drinks, having little to no interest in the law as a profession. But then as I've mentioned up thread, the prospect of two more years of study paid for for(conversion and LPC) then walking into a £35k job with £10k golden handshake seemed rather appealing. Most of them ended up getting training contracts with MC firms - despite not actually having any great passion for the law. Always felt unfair towards students from other RG universities who actually had their hearts set on a legal career and half the MC trained contracts had already been dished out


Yes you can make it in the law without going to Oxbridge. No one is saying otherwise. But it certainly used to help a lot in my day


(I went into advertising on fuck all money where my Oxbridge degree made no difference whatsoever, now earn very well as a strategy consultant, but these contracts are based on my previous experience, not my degree. However as I said upthread, the skills in researching, constructing a persuasive argument, presenting it, defending it and thinking on my feet when debating it, that I got from the tutorial system have been utterly invaluable in my career progression)

This thread is so elitist and snobby. I haven't seen any snobbery or boasting, though there's been a fair bit of reverse snobbery.

It's hardly surprising that DD won't even consider Oxbridge. If she is capable of getting the grades she is an absolute fool not to consider it. She might decide against it but how lazy and defeatist not to do some research and make an informed decision.
And you really can't complain about elitism if you won't make even the minimum of effort to challenge it.

Even 20 years later, the continuous mentioning of their Oxbridge degree can be overwhelming.
I rarely have reason to tell anyone I went to Oxford but even now, nearly 30 years later, a startling number of people get really aggressive about it. "Oh you went to Oxford, you must think you're really clever, I could have gone but I really WANTED to go to Reading blah blah." The husband of a friend (comprehensive girl from nowhere posh, like me) used to go on and on about how elitist and snobby it was - he went to fucking public school!

This thread is so elitist and snobby.

Where, please?

Yes, people do get really aggressive about it! I never mention it at all unless asked as some reactions are so strange.

Schnitzel DD suffers from extremely low self esteem and anxiety and feels that she wouldn't measure up to what would be expected of her at Oxbridge. She is looking at studying medicine so doesn't feel the need to go there either. She also has some other health issues that are currently being investigated and, while she doesn't want to go to a local university, she doesn't want to be several hours from home either, which both Oxford and Cambridge would be.

She is very easily intimidated by people much cleverer than her and would feel out of her depth.

Basically she lacks the confidencr to even try.

Where do academically able but unconfident students go to university if they don't interview well?

The question makes no sense.

Schnitzel - yes! Bizarre levels of aggression. I remember a friend of a friend I scarcely knew (except to exchange friendly small talk) sent multiple public messages attacking me on social media when he heard I'd been accepted by Cambridge. It was so odd.

At least in my day however, Oxford got first pick. The MC firms came to Milkround and wined and dined final year students (most of us just went along for the free drinks)

In my day, there was also a fair amount of MC/other major firms wining and dining at RG level (I remember getting taken out at a table of no more than 10 by an MC...I think it's was an MC anyway, there was definitely more wining than dining and uni was a while ago!...in my second year - and, to those people, I would like to say, I'm very sorry I decided not to be a lawyer after all but the steak was fantastic so it was very much appreciated).

BUT "my day" was also pre-financial crisis. I imagine the number of training contracts at top tier firms have dwindled (along with those wining and dining budgets) meaning Oxbridge is probably still getting first dibs and there's less to go around down below. But, like I said above, I decided not to be a lawyer so I couldn't say for certain.

This thread is so elitist and snob

Echoing PP - where?

Oxford and Cambridge are academically elitist, that's the point. They want the brightest students

However the aim is for this to be a true meritocracy and the colleges are acutely aware of the need for admissions that are more representative

This behind the scenes look at the admissions process is quite enlightening - if not affirmative action, the goal is for tutors to look at the context and not just the grades in isolation (an ABB student at a low performing school may be, if they interview well, a better bet than an AAA student from a high flying independent or grammar)

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2012/jan/10/how-cambridge-admissions-really-work

However tutors can't admit students who don't apply in the first place. When students are advised not to think about Oxbridge because they're told it's a snobby place and they wouldn't fit in, because it's only for public school toffs, then it's not going to get more representative if the most able students aren't applying!

Lonicera, with all you just mentioned and her health issues do you really think your daughter is the right sort of person to be treating patients as a doctor though? My brother read medicine at Cambridge (from the NE) and he did fine. Yes there were some posh boys there but it was not an issue - you just get on with your studying. It's a great place to go if you want to do very well in medicine.

To answer to "Where do academically able but unconfident students go to university if they don't interview well?" all the places that don't do interviews. My London lawyer daughters didn't try Oxbridge (nor did I). We have done fine. Plenty of universities have no interviews.

If people choose not to apply then it's more fool them and of course they then do not get the chance but there are loads of state school applicants who are very bright who will be trying (and failing along with many private school children - 100% failure from my children's school this year to Oxbridge - fee paying school) so let them have the places and let those teenagers who daren't appl or make silly decisions not based on fact not get the places as they surely then do not deserve them and the places can go to more determined more sensible state school applicants.

Lonicera genuine question - is your DD aware that all medical schools interview? It's why the UCAS deadline for medicine is the earlier October date alongside Oxbridge and vet - to allow time for interviews in December.

"Lonicera, with all you just mentioned and her health issues do you really think your daughter is the right sort of person to be treating patients as a doctor though?"

I question it to myself as well, but I don't want to rain on her parade. I am, however, being realistic and ensure that she understands the odds of being successful.

Zoya yes she does. She has sat through medical talks at a couple of universities and know the process. If anything she is more determined than ever. And part of me thinks that if she really wants something she will do her utmost to achieve it.

She has also spent a lot of time practising for the UKCAT test.

The difficulty is that she started off thinking she wanted to do biomedical science and looked at one university for that only, then decided she wanted to do medicine, which doesn't leave her much time to look at other universities. Unfortunately too many open days clashed with each other so we have only looked at three so far, but she is thinking of deferring anyway.

I have a different answer to the question of what happens to those who are academically able but not good at interviews. Some of them end up at Oxbridge. My daughter is in this category. She is very shy and lacks confidence but rather to my surprise didn't find the interviews at Oxford nearly as stressful as either of us were expecting. I think that was because they asked "real" questions about the subject she was interested in and much of the time was spent talking about things she had mentioned in her personal statement or talking about the various practical tests that she had taken.

I imagine many applicants are similar and are to talk intelligently about the subject that they have applied to study, even if not not confidently about a wide range of things. I imagine much depends on the subject though and that someone applying to study e.g. philosophy or law would have a very different experience.

Definitely it has been worth it - I went to Oxford and it was worth what I learned from how hard I had to work to get in, what I learned from the form and manner of the teaching and worth it for the opportunities it gave me and the friends I made whilst there. That's not to say other universities don't give you those things, but that Oxbridge creates a particular experience in the getting in bit and the work you do when you are there.

It has also opened doors where otherwise I might not have got in, although I'm pretty sure I stayed through some doors based on my experience and ability to come across in interview. Law firms did come courting (I read law) but that happens at other RG unis too. I have to disagree with previous posters re: the Bar and Oxbridge bias, where the postgraduate qualification was populated with a broad range of educational backgrounds and the other pupils in my chambers reflected that range. However we are talking [ahem] 20 years ago and in a discipline that even now wouldn't offer a £50-60k pupillage, so it may be that times have changed.

Other posters have given good advice on what to think about. The college is key and I'd add Mansfield and St Peter's to the list of ones to look at at Oxford if you think the older, more traditional colleges might not be right.

For many subjects at Oxford your entire degree is based on your Finals and your Finals only. The pressure that creates is enormous and that's a factor to consider. The fact that you can withstand that pressure - I sat 8 x 3 hour exams in 9 days, covering course content from the previous 6 terms - says something about you and it's definitely not for everyone.

The public school contingent were there, it didn't matter, we all rubbed along ok and didn't feel it necessary to make a thing of it. My friends from that time are a mix of public school, grammar school and comprehensive educated, and our backgrounds are similarly mixed. I loved being in an environment where I wasn't being bullied for being bright, that had a small college community on one side but the amazing facilities and academics of Oxford on the other. But I do get that not everyone has that positive experience.

BlueyDragon yes you're right to distinguish different areas of the London Bar but for everything except the least competitive area/s there's in fact a preference of not simply those who went to Oxbridge but those with either a First or a postgraduate qualification such as the BCL. That's the way it is now, except for a tiny number of chambers who very actively seek 'broader experience' but those chambers are equally demanding but in a different way, and very few in number. I accept that Crime and Family may be different, also the Provincial Bar. For the moment however, you're facing an uphill struggle and in other areas, without a First from a non Oxbridge uni and preferably a Distinction in the GDL and an Outstanding on the BPTC and a large scholarship from an Inn, you're highly likely to be seeking pupillage for several years without success, although depending on what you do in the interim you may end up lucky. It's brutal.

Agree about the pressure at Law Finals although few other subjects are quite as bad as Oxford Law, numerically.

I also think it is a very very good thing only the very brightest become lawyers and doctors. It's safer for the public. I don't think it's a problem although it makes it harder for individual children as it always has done (my great uncle became a solicitor many years ago. His 3 younger brothers all tried and failed. It always was hard. In a way that's why the pay for a lot of these things is high as there is a lot of demand. There is also luck in it too but going to a good university does help and oxbridge certainly helps a lot.

One reason I did pretty well in law was because I got the best A levels in the school, sat exams for an entrance scholarship to university which I won, best in first year, 2 best in year prizes last year etc etc.... (I am not really showing off and I didn't try to get into Oxbridge but those kind of things do matter in some careers. My Cambridge doctor brother will be similar too and we both have had lovely successful high paid careers and that early fairly academic start did help)

I said above if you don't like interviews don't apply to Oxbridge - that is true for most subjects. My twins are holding Bristol offers at the moment and rejected Durham, both pretty good places and none had an interview anywhere. They didn't try Oxbridge as probably would not have got in.

If you are interested in the bar look at the CVs of the youngest barristers at places like Brick Court as that will tell you what they have all done - the CVs are on line.

Eg this chap second from the bottom - so second most junior under "Education"
www.brickcourt.co.uk/people/profile/david-heaton

I couldn't read past "The tutorial system whereby you had a 1-1 weekly hour"!!

I did my 1st degree at a non RG uni that offered this tutorial system but only 30minutes and it made a huge difference to my learning. I graduated with a 2.1 and had three graduate role job offers prior to completing my degree.

I decided to change career and I completed my 2nd degree at a former polytechnic and we only got 1-1 tutorial for 30minutes per module! So basically you're left to muddle through by yourself.

If I had my time again I would definitely push myself to try and attend an Oxbridge university.

I can't remember what I had now (RG but not Oxbridge). We certainly had what seemed like a weekly tutorial with about 4 of us in several subjects once a week and that worked well as those who hadn't worked for it could leave the talking to those who had and we got a bit of debate going about the issues which you wouldn't get with a 1 - 1. I think there was a tutorial 1 - 1 but that was more a chat about whether you were okay as well.