Oxbridge degrees - worth it?

[Pombearsandnaiceham]

What do you think? Would be interested to hear your thoughts :)

Is this the new "discuss"?

I am very interested in the answers here especially from bananafish . My DD is considering Oxford as well as UCL and Edinburgh to read Ancient and Modern History. She wants to do a law conversion course afterwards.
We are as far from Hooray Henrys as you can get. From visiting both Oxford and Cambridge I got the impression that as an underprivileged student one would be better off financially than at a regular RG uni. Certainly some of the colleges give generous financial assistance to students who aren't being bankrolled by Mum and Dad.
Is this as good as the colleges and current students say?
Although my DD is incredibly motivared and focused I worry tremendously about her mental health as I know the pressure is pretty intense. I have concerns over how my Big Fish in a little pond, Head Girl DD will deal with being a Little Fish in a Big Pond. Would this be the same in non-oxbridge unis?
She has been to summer schools this holiday run under the Widening Participation banner so has had tasters .
Sorry for hijacking.. I'm thinking about this subject a lot at the moment.

It's a difficult question hoof as the colleges are so different from each other and different in the levels of support they provide.

E.g. At Cambridge, peterhouse and magdalene were smallish and very public school focused whereas Kings, fitzwilliam and the women's colleges were much more inclusive. It would be worth her visiting as many as possible and trying to talk to the tutors about what support they offer with the adjustment to university life.

Depends on course, whether that is best course for them.
I had two turn down Oxford places (Medicine and Languages) as when the detail was considered neither course was best fit each of for them.
I had one who did sciences and loved it from the outset.
Exeter seems to have more students who are far more privileged than Oxford. A number of very ordinary students at both who work part-time or who get additional support.
Not all funding is dependent on means test - some offer financial incentives based on grades - UEA certainly does, for example.
Do employers prefer Oxbridge? Depends on employer and career pathway. Medics have to do foundation programme regardless of where they studied and the pathways to consultant is set firmly. There may be some advantages to Oxbridge because of networks but my experience is the hospital counts for more than Oxbridge- clinical medicine isn't studied at Oxbridge. So someone training at Imperial or GST has equal pegging in reality.
I know plenty of youngsters who have done really well out of other universities and some who struggled in the real world after public school then Oxbridge. It's what suits the individual that matters.

hoof great choice of subject! Most of my cohort in history went on to do law conversion courses actually (although for many this was because they reached their final year, hadn't got a clue what they wanted to do, and then the law firms came round at milkround waving training contracts and two more years paid study and walking into a £32k job plus golden handshake, and most went 'ooh yeah that sounds good, two more years of being a student, law it is'

(I always thought this was pretty shitty for the students who actually wanted to do the law, and Oxbridge students snaffled most of the training contracts)

Anyway

Choose your college. As PP said there are posh hooray Henry colleges and fab normal ones. At Oxford I would recommend the 'northern' colleges (so called because they're in the north of the city). Former women's colleges particularly - I was at Somerville and absolutely loved it. St Anne's, Lady Margaret Hall and Keble also great. Jesus a more traditional option but still very normal. At the other end of the spectrum you have Christchurch, Magdalen, Brasenose and Oriel - much more rah, I think I'd have had a very different experience if I'd not completely loved my college community. Those colleges tend to have the higher levels of public school educated students, whereas my college was predominantly comprehensive

As PP have said it is very very self directed study. I wasn't taught, I was pushed and challenged. I had the odd lecture, but with two essays a week my learning time was in the library, preparing for the tutorial. You have to be self motivated because you won't get spoon fed. You basically teach yourself the subject, then the tutorial teaches you to think

That was my experience anyway

I was similar to your DD and yes it will be a shock to not be top of the class any more. I think it's a very reasonable thing to be concerned about from an emotional POV. For me it was the making of me, because it meant I couldn't coast along any more. I really had to bloody work - and that I wasn't going to be the best at everything, and that was OK. I say that, but I seem to remember doing fairly minimal work in my second year and having an absolute blast doing a gazillion extra curricular activities

I feel very privileged to have had an Oxford education, but it's not for everyone and it's far from the be all and end all. I had a fantastic time but doesn't mean I wouldn't have had just a wonderful time anywhere else

Maybe I was unusually unlucky, but I got one on ones with Vernon Bogdanor. And a couple of revision tutorials with David Butler at one point. It's taken me well over a decade to realise how stupid it was to always be hungover during them.

Worth it, as opposed to... What?

I have an Oxbridge degree. It's the hardest thing I ever did but I had a huge amount of fun and met some amazing, talented people. I was quite introverted and the college environment suited me, helping bring me out of my shell and giving me the confidence to try new things (rowing, rugby). But it doesn't suit everyone. You have to be prepared fail, and for the first time in my life I was working my ass off just to be average.

I'd second the advice to Hoof's daughter about picking the right college. All colleges will have a disproportionate intake from the top quartile - the comfortably off middle class (whether private or grammar educated) - but the ex-women's and "Northern" colleges will have a large number from the second and third quartiles, and you only really need a handful of mates. Somebody coming from the bottom socio-economic quartile will probably feel very out of place though, and will need strong reserves of self-confidence and/or a tunnel-vision devotion to their subject in order to flourish.

I wouldn't worry too much about the culture shock of being a small fish in a big pond. Each college is quite a small pond so you can find your niche there. I'd have thought an ex-Head Girl could shine in a normal JCR. And if college life doesn't suit then there's a multitude of societies. One of them will be the right place for anyone to fit in and will be a small enough pond to feel cosy. DH came from a (leafy, suburban) comp from a non-university-going family but he picked a lefty college and joined some fun societies populated by like minded nerds (and me) and had a perfectly good time.

The tutorial system at Oxford is fantastic and I say that as a shy state school girl who was sick with nerves for the first half term.

I mixed with people from all types of different backgrounds and am still close to many of my friends from that time.

My years at Oxford were the making of me. I gained confidence in my abilities and that has helped me in my career immensely. I don't think I am brilliant or anything like that but I do know that I can analyse a set of facts, put a point across clearly and stand my ground.

It was the first time I had met the so called rahs from public school and they were mostly normal people, some of whom I liked and some I didn't. If anything, my time there made me less prejudiced, no class or race has a monopoly on bad behaviour.

I certainly felt more comfortable there after the first term than at school as I was often tormented for wanting to work at school.

You do need to be self motivated though. I know people there who didn't do well because they couldn't organise themselves and a couple of them were very bright indeed.

*knew

Yea, I would say it was definitely worth it. I didn´t find it overwhelming public school and the image many people have about that is really only relevant for a small group of people. Among my uni friends are people from all educational backgrounds - everyone mixed and I can´t remember anyone particularly caring who had gone to state or public school.

Yes, it is a lot of hard work, but for very intelligent kids, they will get a chance to meet and become friends with people who are equally or more intelligent than them. In my life post-graduation I have come across very intelligent people who have been loners all their lives, because they have never found their "kindred spirits". It makes me sad that they too couldn´t have had the chance to go to Oxbridge and meet other people like them.

I don´t know if being Oxbridge really opens doors for employment these days, but it certainly isn´t a disadvantage to have studied there.

I can't comment on Oxbridge specifically as I didn't go.

But I did do a massively competitive course (medicine) at a well respected RG Uni.

In our first week one of the senior academics realigned our world view - instead of all being top (or near the top) in our schools doing masses out of school too we were now all one cohort and some people would End up in the lower quartiles.

It was hard to hear at the time, I still remember the slightly shocked atmosphere in the lecture theatre after that, but in general we settled down as a year group.

Same was true after the lecturer who pointed out that a few of us would be dead before graduation. He was right. And another person died this week which brought it all back.

I had friends who went to Oxbridge who struggled more with suddenly not always getting top grades. I wondered at the time and still wonder if the reality should have been pointed out to them as it was to us.

In my experience an Oxbridge degree (science) got me the interview if not the job. Was it the best education for me maybe not but mainly because I am very introvert so didn't get the best out of the tutorial system. You also had to be very self motivated to do well as aside from the weekly tutorial no one really checked to see if you were doing anything.

Totally depends on what you want to study, what sort of uni experience you want to have, where your interests lie etc. I have an Oxbridge degree and can second the comments of PPs about the tutorial system and the academic rigour. 'Better' is a subjective concept but Oxbridge degrees are certainly more challenging. I did languages and, when chatting with a school friend at a different uni, also doing languages, the difference in the level of work was staggering.

@BoysOfMelody may I ask what your field is? It's for nothing more than my own personal nosiness as I live near Northampton and would be interested to hear about what's good about the uni.

I'm with Bananafish. Was truly wonderful. Bloody hard work. I did the same subject as my Dsis who went to an RG , I cannot believe what she has not read or studied. We did it all, in depth, rigorously.

As I was never tops academically I never found the big fish small pond issue difficult, though some did.

Made amazing friends. Sung, acted, socialised, set up a society and read, read read. Went to lectures in other subjects ( own subject lecturers tended to read out their books). Tutorial system brilliant.

Superb education per se, but agree, not taught. No spoon feeding despite what people say.

TuckingFaxman same here!

I think for most very bright teens, suddenly being surrounded by people on their own level or above will be more of a blessing than a curse. Suddenly being able to say you're reading Dostoyevsky in your free time without being jeered at can be very liberating.

An Oxbridge degree definitely makes a CV stand out, as you have to be fairly special to get in there in the first place.

Worth it in what sense? As we are low-earners, DS's costs at Oxbridge are going to be significantly less than at, for example, Durham. So, for us and for him, financially, absolutely worth it.

For nerdy kids who thrive in an academic atmosphere, it's wonderful. For very anxious, over-conscientious kids who struggle when they're not at the top, maybe not so much.

DH and I loved it almost 30 years ago.

An Oxbridge degree will still open doors for many professions. Quite simply, when presented with 300 CV's at relatively junior level there needs to be a way of weeding people out and having an Oxbridge degree will rightly or wrongly often get the candidate through the door. Is it worth it? I've no idea, I was never clever enough to I've it on my radar but as a recruiter looking at CV's of graduates of 2nd / 3rd job'ers it's often going to put you one step ahead especially for things like Law, accountancy and many jobs in the City.

Hoof - I don't know if your DD is thinking about a gap year, but taking a break from study to work and travel can give some helpful perspective on the university rat race. A year to put A levels in perspective and get a better idea of who you are and what you want to do, and give you more life experience can only add confidence, which is a good thing to have as you start at a high-pressured university.

@Tralalalalz - depends on the grade and the business. I work in banking. If all of my applicants have irrelevant first class degrees, then graduates with a 2:1 or 2:2 (including Oxbridge) will get their CVs binned, and the remainder will be assessed based on their total work history. This is where oxbridge candidates often fall down because my industry requires work experience just to get through the door.

If they all have relevant degrees then we put the LSE/IIM/Warwick/Harvard candidates with at least a 2:1 (sometime a 2:2) at the top of the pile (over even those with 1:1s from other universities) as they are often ready for work straight away.

DD has decided she doesn't want to consider Oxbridge as she feels she wouldn't fit in. Her boyfriend does because he is the product of a working class Barnsley family, and he wants to piss off the hooray Henrys.