To think that either way I will be letting one of my DC down?

[CherrySour]

I have two DD's aged 8 & 6.

We suspect the eldest may have ASD, she's got some MH issues and really struggles to make friends. However, she has two good friends on our street, a pair of sisters aged 7 & 4. I'm really pleased that she has at least these friendships and I have done my best to encourage this, they are at our house a lot and I have taken them on several day trips with us.

However, they don't seem to get along with my youngest. I think dd1 instigates a lot of this as she doesn't like her sister much but over the last few months, I would say it's descended into bullying territory. They appear to enjoy excluding dd2 from their games and she is apparently not allowed in their house. As they spend more time at our house than dd1 spends at theirs, this was happening a lot. It got to the point that dd2 was in tears every time they came over. I would stipulate that they were nice to her as a minimum or they would have to go home, at times this duties but more often than not, I would eventually have to send them home. Sometimes, if DD has something they want, like sweets, they will be nice to her until they run out (poor dd2 is very generous with her things and I think she also gives them things so they will like her).

But then last week, both my DDs went over to their house to play. DD2 came home a short while later in tears and I couldn't get her to tell me what was wrong. Eventually she told me that all three girls had been hitting her in their bedroom and the mother hadn't done anything about it/didn't realise what was going on. Dd2 is very sensitive and didn't want to tell me as she thought it might make them dislike her more. I feel absolutely gutted for her - it must have been quite frightening and upsetting being trapped in a stranger house being hit by three other girls one of them her own sister!

I don't know the mother well to talk to her about it. I've now said these girls are not welcome in my house. The thing is, I don't know whether to put an end to dd1's friendship with them as then she will have nobody (dd2 has other friends on the street). It is dd1's birthday soon and these girls are the only ones invited to her birthday trip. I'm obviously dealing with DD1 over this behaviour but i can't exactly exclude my own DD from our home, whereas I can with these girls and so far, my telling them off hasn't stopped the unkind behaviour.

How would you handle this situation? I feel like either way I'm letting one of my DDs down.

I feel for DD2 reading all of this. Poor thing. I was the kid who was hit and beaten up and suffocated and all sorts, which escalated, by a bully girl and another younger girl who just went along with what the bully girl did, all the while I told my mother and she still forced me to see them because she was friends with their mothers. It devastated me and did massive damage to my self esteem.

You need to stand up for DD2. Nobody else will. DD1 sounds like she needs facts and clear statements/links between action and consequence. 'You hit DD2 and have been bullying her with your friends, so no play dates with those girls this week'

If she gets angry a lot, Im not sure if it might be useful to look at some books with her (I think 'the anger gremlin' was one recommended) or post on the boards here for specific advice.

You really need to take some action though and not prioritise DD1 friendships (which sound very unhelpful, actually) over DD2

I would not allow those girls on the birthday treat.

The idea of your poor DD2 being shut in a room and repeatedly hit is just awful and not a little bit frightening if I'm honest. OP, these are not good friends for your DD1 to have. They hit your little girl. Don't let that be okay in your DD1's eyes by continuing to allow her to play with them.

Have you spoken to the other mother?

Have you punished DD1?

Such a shame your DD1 doesn't realise that she could have a best friend for life in her younger sister.

Poor DD2. I feel so sorry for her.

This friendship needs stopping. It's not healthy for either DD. In the long run it could be damaging for DD1 as well.

I' miss not really clear (and maybe you aren't either) whether your DD1 is the instigator of this bullying and the friends go along with it, or whether the friends are the instigators and DD1 goes along with it?

Because if DD1 is the instigator, and I sort of get the impression that she might be from the fact that the other girls are so much younger, then banning the friendship won't help. DD1's next friends will get roped in, and the next, and the next. You need to tackle DD1 (no idea how).

In the mean time, you absolutely must protect DD2. I'd disinvite the friends on the birthday trip, but as a punishment for DD1 not as punishment for them.

Op I've read all the thread, honestly and without sounding alarmist I'd say the major issue here is dd1. There is too much emphasis on the "friends"
From what I've read, it seems dd2 (and you to some extent) are being emotionally abused by dd1.
The birthday treat and friendship concerns really need to take a back seat and you need to get some professional help with how to deal with dd1's behaviour. It's really disturbing to read.
I've a 5yo and a 2yo, my 5yo can be spiteful and mean to her younger sister, I've actually posted about how to cope and deal with this, however your dd1 is now becoming physically abusive as well as encouraging her friends to do the same.

I'd ask for some family counselling or mediation from your GP, or google informed families, contact your council for your local family support, as it sounds like your not coping. This is not to say your a bad parent, just one who's got very little support and at her wits end.

You obviously love both girls and want what's best, but dd1 is only 8, if you don't tackle this now, what's it going to be like when she's 12/13/14.

Has dd1 always disliked dd2? If there is any time when you notice dd1 being kind to her - and do you praise dd1 if she is?
Dd2 is going to suffer tremendously if you don't act.
Tell dd1 no friends, no playing out until she can demonstrate being respectful to you both, in return take both girls out to do something they both love for dd's birthday, do some activities as a family to keep them entertained while at home, baking, painting, crafts etc to try and encourage bonding between the girls.

Sorry for such a long reply, it's so sad and you must be tying yourself up in knots, however its quite unsettling to read.

That 10 nice things to cancel out a bad thing is possibly the biggest BS I've ever read.

If a man punches his wife in the face and then buys her 10 bunches of flowers would you say everything's peachy?

Why should your DD2 have to live a life of abuse and misery because of her horrible vicious sister?

I honestly don't know what you can do. But you are minimising and shrugging off her abuse and it is worrying because you're teaching her that she can be abused because someone else is having a bad time. Because it does sound like one day you will have to choose between them.
Or face the fact that the day DD2 can leave she will run away from you all like her arse is on fire and never ever look back at the 7th level of hell that you call home or the people who live in it.

How well does the other mum know your DD1? Is she aware of the issues? I think you need to speak to the mum and tell her that your daughter absolutely adores her two daughters but very much dislikes her own sister at times and can try to manipulate other children into bullying or even hurting her. She might not be aware that her children are capable of it and may wish to speak to them about it and also keep an eye on any future interactions.
I have a 4 year old who is fairly obedient (long may it last). I wonder what she would do if an older child, who she might look up to, would ask her to do something naughty. She might resist and even know it's wrong but she might very well still do it. I would want to know but I may also be wary of your dd coming round - sorry OP, not a nice position to be in.

I would come down on the hitting episode like a ton of bricks and make crystal clear to all three that this is absolutely unacceptable and will never be happening again. This isn't a healthy friendship for any of the girls to have.

However, I would also try to separate DD1 and DD2 a bit. Organise some extra-curricular activities for DD1 on her own (Brownies, ballet, gymnastics, whatever). Give her some new arenas to make possible friendships in, where adults will be supervising and where DD2 won't be around.

Any chance of giving them separate bedrooms...? And I wouldn't be insisting that DD2 should be part of DD1's birthdays. If DD1 is jealous of DD2 then give her some space from her little sister, where she doesn't feel threatened by her. Some families include siblings in birthday parties, others don't. DD2 can have her own birthday parties on her own birthday, and you can do family cinema trips another time. You can focus on helping DD1 to develop good friendships without relying on these particular two sisters, where the dynamic has gone sour.

Dd1 wouldn't be having a birthday trip. 1 thing I won't tolerate is bullying. She would have no day out, grounded a week for every act of violence towards her sister and like fuck would she be seeing those sister's again. Ganging up with 2 others and beating up her sister? You can't let your youngest be treated this way. Take the ASD out of the picture for a minute. What would you do if she were NT? You would punish her. You say she doesn't care but then you said that she would be devastated to lose her friends or not go to the cinema for her birthday. So you do have the means to discipline her effectively but you are choosing not to at DD2s expense.

My eldest (8) was mean to to her little sister (6) once in front of friends she was grounded for a week, she wasn't allowed out, screens or to play with her Dsis unless DD2 wanted her to. She hasn't been mean to her since.

If it was her birthday week that would have been cancelled and if their friends joined in they wouldn't be friends still. They are loads of children in the world so plenty of opportunities to make more friends

I'd cancel the trip and explain to DD1 it's the punishment for hitting, and I'd follow through.

You need to tell the professionals what's happened, emphasize (can't spell it) that she is now at the point were she's trapped her sister in a room and repeatedly hit her. Tackle this head on, separate the girls (send dd2 to an activity) and work with dd1 on behaviour management, there are different types of books like life story I think it is that may actually hit home to DD1 what she's doing if punishment doesn't work, encourage dd1 to go to additional needs groups and if you've got a FAST team in your area they're good too

I had the same issue where DS would repeatedly try kick, jab or jam his fingers in DD's eyes, but as he's only 3.5 I just picked him up and physically restrained him. He knows it's mean, that seems to be my only saying atm

I think some posters are being overly harsh- dd1 clearly has severe issues to be self harming at 8, and normal discipline often doesn't work with an asd child. I agree with everyone saying that you must protect dd2, but I have a sister- it is quite possible that dd2 is not as nice as it seems to dd1, and don't underestimate the impact of jealousy of friends and life come easily to dd2- it is not dd1 fault she is autistic.

I would get as much help as possible, but I know that is hard. Try lots of different clubs and activities for both girls- rainbows and brownies are good if money is tight. If at all possible separate the bedroom space, even if just with furniture, or painting with 2 different colours.

Also, sibling fights can be normal- my two dss had a pair of same age brother friends- they could play in two pairs beautifully, but as a 4 my ds 2 was always picked on, instigated by the other ds1 (I think acting out the way he wanted to act to his own little brother), so your dd1 may not be the instigator- though do consider that she may be.

Please be kind to yourself- it is very hard to parent children with sn, and I think some of the pp have lost sight of that.

Also, the special needs board here is likely to have a lot of excellent advice, do post there for help.

it is very hard to parent children with sn, and I think some of the pp have lost sight of that.. I don't think people have Tanaqui. ASD is no excuse for beating up your sister. It's not DD1's fault she is autistic, but neither is it DD2's. And beating up your sister because of jealousy is not acceptable, SN or no. Would you be happy to let it slide if your DS got beaten up by a group of kids because the instigator had asd and was jealous because your DS finds something easier than him?

I'll tell you what will likely happen if you let your DD1continue to bully your DD2 and that will be DD2 will at some point realise how much you favour DD1, she escape as soon as she can and you'll be lucky to see her once a year. You won't see her at holidays etc because it would upset DD1 and you'll know nothing of her life. Whilst you'll be a crutch to DD1 who has never learnt she has to get along with people. And probably will turn on you.

Actually I might do the reverse of banning the other children from your house and letting your dd go to theirs and instead only permit contact when I had the time to closely supervise the play so that I could see exactly what was going on and try and teach my child to deal with the situation in a more socially acceptable manner. NT children may just learn socially acceptable rules by just playing together.

Children with ASC may have to be taught the rules explicitly. Many years ago we had problems with ds1 hitting another child at a holiday camp. When asked why he simply said that he wanted the child to be his friend and could not understand that this was just about the worst way to try and get somebody to play with you.

"The issues between dd1 & 2 are that dd1 just doesn't like her, finds her annoying and she also has this belief that I favour dd2. To be fair, sometimes dd2 will give as good as she gets but only if DD1 is in a calm phase and never if she is in meltdown or close to meltdown."

OP, you could start a new thread or ask for this one to be moved to the Special Needs forum.

You have a massive problem on your hands and need expert help.

If this sort of bullying is allowed to continue it won't be long until SS is involved to protect your dd2

Again I want to thank everyone for the replies.

We already have professionals involved (including a social worker) who are aware of how violent my dd1 is to the family, especially dd2. I've also talked about this friendship she has with the neighbouring sisters. It's taken three years just to get them to listen to me and dd1 has deteriorated hugely in that time. I don't know what else to do which is why I post here asking for advice.

Taylor22, the 10 positive things to cancel out a negative is something they taught me on a parenting course. Is that not true?

The advice seems to be mixed but I quite like the idea of having a short term ban (I think a month has been mentioned a couple of times) and then closely supervising the girls and maybe doing some organised activities. We only have a very small garden which is on a slope so the girls often ride their bikes and scooters on this narrow road where other children play (I can see it from my kitchen window) and I'm not sure I could just force DD1 to stay in our garden for this reason. The mum doesn't live directly on our street but their grandmother lives directly opposite and they visit her a lot and to see dd1. I will also use social stories to help dd1 understand what she is doing.

I just want to point out that I fo not favour either of my daughters. Well, dd2 is a much easier child but I love them equally and want the best for both of them. It's just feeling like an impossible task at the moment.

Of course you favour your children, but I know exactly what you mean, when one child is "easier"
Your torn, but you as the parent need to be firm where your lines are drawn, no hitting means no friends for 3/4 weeks and that's it, no wavering or negotiation, being the holidays it must be even more stressful for you but be firm

Personally I think it's an awful mindset to teach children.
It teaches the aggressor I can do bad things as long as I do nice things later.
And it teaches the victim that the bad things they've been subjected to no longer matter because the aggressor has now done some token nice things.

op. your situation sounds so tough. I hope you get the support you need.

I think the 10 to 1 think is that saying that negative comments are remembered more so you should aim to praise your child 10 times more than tell them off. Not sure I agree with it but I'm sure it doesn't mean you can beat someone and then say 10 nice things and it's ok!