To ask what policy your Uni has on women's spaces?

[SerfTerf]

Those of you who have recent work or study experience.

Would you mind listing institution names and their policies?

NC if you need to of course.

Pineapple So, someone left a camera in a gender-neutral toilet cubicle, and that's a problem with the fact the sign on the door said gender-neutral? He could have done that in any toilet regardless of the sign on the door. I believe he was removed from the uni yes? One incident in 2 years (maybe longer) and the action wasn't actually a direct result of gender-neutral toilets, or of self-ID, or anything other than one guy deciding to put a camera in a bathroom and film anyone (regardless of gender or biological sex) who went in there?

That's a problem with a student (a mentally ill student by the sounds of it, not that it's an excuse but it is important) not with the gender neutral toilet.

This trans-exclusion, gender-critical thinking isn't a majority view, not among women and not even among feminists Is that a fact? I'd like to see if that is really the case. Bearing in mind that anyone who is gender critical is not allowed to talk about it under this new ideology.

this thinking harms trans people, non-binary people, and women who don't want their whole identity to be tied to their biology. Can you expand on how being gender-critical harms trans people, non-binary people and women? I'd also like to know why you think that being gender critical means that a woman's whole identity is tied to their biology?

milady I agree, making less facilities readily available for disabled people is not fixing anything.

assassinated if you don't believe in gender and gender-identity, then what makes a person a woman or man is their biology? No?

We are allowed to talk about it? Although Pineapple seems to think not, it would be interesting to hear their views, as obviously they may be different to mine. We just have to talk about it in a way that doesn't invalidate someone's gender identity or the gender-identity of a group as a whole.

Loops Am I allowed to request that a gynaecological exam be carried out by a female doctor, not any doctor identifying as a woman?

That's trans-exclusionary?

"what makes a person a woman or man is their biology? No?"

Yes. But why do you think that tells you anything about them other than their biology? It's the same as knowing that I'm 5ft 8in, or have black hair, or brown eyes. It's a fact about me as a person. It doesn't dictate anything about my personality or "identity", or whether I'm particularly feminine or masculine, according to our current cultural expectations of those words.

Loops - What makes someone a woman or a man is their biology. It has nothing to do with identity, unless a person's entire sense of identity is predicated on the fact that they are a woman or a man. I don't identify as a woman, I just am one. My identity is more about personality, individuality and sense of self.

Also, I missed it last night, but I really appreciate that you agreed not to use the word 'cis' for people who dislike it. That doesn't happen often in online debate and it's very encouraging!

milady I agree, making less facilities readily available for disabled people is not fixing anything.

No. Practically it's a dreadful idea.

I also find it quite troubling. I suspect it reflects an assumption that we have 'normal' toilets and disabled toilets. So anyone who doesn't fit the category of 'normal' should be redirected to the not-normal facilities. That's no good for anyone.

Of course, the really radical thing would be to make all the bloody toilets accessible. But that would cost money.

I've been irritated by this since I notice the new signs they've put up. It's a deeply problematic form of tokenism.

Maid You can request a female doctor or nurse, if the female doctor or nurse isn't acceptable because they are a trans woman you can request a different doctor or nurse, but like I wouldn't be like 'I don't want them they're a man' because that would be quite offensive. If I go to the GP and I don't like my GP I am within my rights to ask to see someone else, although I'd be super judged if I said "I don't want to see them because they're gay, or black" just don't give a reason haha loads of people have non-PC views, it's fine, but keep them to yourself in public and just make up another reason.

milady completely! But then I think disabled facilities are grossly inadequate in many places, and not really fit for purpose for a lot of people. I think it probably does come down to money, but again at my uni they have a very good student government and peer-support groups that listen to the needs of minority or disadvantaged groups on campus.

loops how does this work: We can discuss gender-critical feminism, in a way that doesn't invalidate the gender identities of any of our classmates ?
Being gender critical in my case means denying the objective reality of gender at all. Of course gender exists, but it changes from society to society and over time, so it is not an objective reality. If someone else's entire sense of self is tied up in the gender they identify with as they feel there is something objectively real about it, surely my beliefs automatically invalidate their gender identity? Which is not to say I don't believe wholeheartedly that they should be able to live as they like, dress as they like and be addressed as they like.

I'm also a bit confused about all this agreement in your seminar groups. I studied English Literature and Social Policy in the 80s, so quite a bit of discussion of feminism, social organisation etc and I don't remember much ageeement about anything. We argued. A lot. And retained our own opinions as often as not, but now with the details clarified by argument. Your jolly agreement and laughing about gender critical feminism is quite chilling.

I also don't understand the difference between a non-binary person and, well, a person. Does anybody conform absolutely to a gender stereotype?

'I don't want them they're a man' because that would be quite offensive
loads of people have non-PC views, it's fine, but keep them to yourself in public and just make up another reason
Jesus.

So a female who has been raped by a male needs to find a pretext to reject being examined by a male? It's not OK for that female to express herself honestly and genuinely? Don't you think it's important to understand how females actually feel in such situations?

Serf in my local shopping centre there is a gender neutral bathroom within the female bathrooms.
There's separate Male and Disabled access bathrooms, but a gender-neutral area has been assigned within the female bathrooms.

Note how they chose to stick it in the women's space and not in the Men's. Guess the powers that be see it is safer not for us that way.
For anyone who might think I'm being exclusionary without reason, DH checked the Men's room. No gender neutral toilets in there.

Having seen the constitution of the feminist society at UEA, I'd guess that any gender critical discussion would violate their "safe space" policy and therefore not be allowed.

... I should add that ^ is serious not snarky. You can read it online.

Biology is what makes me a woman too. Biology makes me a female human - a woman - not a zebra or a hamster.

UCL (Hall of Residence) stayed there with a school group. Male andFemale showers / toilets but entirely enclosed within those bigger rooms. Sinks as normal (not in the toilet cubicle)

Loops, are you seriously comparing a female wanting a female doctor with a racist not wanting a black doctor? Are you really being that dense?

Also, 'we just have to talk about it in a way that doesn't invalidate someone's gender identity or the gender-identity of a group as a whole' - but genderist ideology invalidates and undermines my reality, never my 'identity'. If your identity is that fragile that it can be invalidated by someone disagreeing with you, it can't be a very authentic identity in the first place.

cardi How about "I don't believe in gender, because of XYZ, but I understand and respect that many people do, can we discuss that"? It's not actually that hard.

I am also surprised than in seminars you regularly didn't agree. Were all your seminars/modules compulsory? We, for the most part, choose our modules so largely the people choosing the modules are fairly similar, then everyone is split up into smaller groups. So you might get a group that mostly agrees, and a group that vehemently doesn't, I may have been fortunate to be in groups that mostly agree. Again, we don't agree on everything, but on the big stuff we did, and we've had feminism discussions where people did not ID as feminist at all (mostly because they viewed feminism in a fairly derogatory way) the people who did ID as feminist mostly shared the 'sort' of feminism they ascribed to.

Our seminar leaders, especially one, might not have particularly liked that we all agreed, or that we sometimes just made jokes about "TERFs" or less inclusive theories. But unless someone complained, they let you have open discussions like that. When, by a lot of people, this kind of thinking is viewed to be just as bad as racism or homophobia, it's clear people don't feel the need to respect those views or give them as much 'space' as other ways of thinking. That might be wrong, but it is what it is.

Maid a person can express themselves however they wish, if they are happy with the potential consequences of that expression. I wouldn't want to be judged, or to upset someone, so I'd just not give a reason.

Pineapple probably yeh, but femsoc isn't the only place to discuss things, and you could always try and start your own society.

just don't give a reason haha loads of people have non-PC views, it's fine, but keep them to yourself in public and just make up another reason

So a woman who has perhaps been raped should have to "make up a reason" about wanting a female doctor to avoid hurting the finer feelings of a man claiming to be a woman?

This trans-exclusion, gender-critical thinking isn't a majority view, not among women and not even among feminists. It might be on mumsnet, but I doubt that too. So it's a general displeasure at the way this thinking harms trans people, non-binary people, and women who don't want their whole identity to be tied to their biology.

What makes you think the majority of women think as you do? The majority of people out there don't really know much about trans, nb, genderfluid, pan sexual etc. Could you even consider that perhaps you are out of touch with general thought on this whole issue?

bambam sure, I can totally consider it, in fact I know that my university, in fact universities and school in general are fairly special cases. But I do have a lot of friends, I'm part of quite a few online communities of both adults, young adults, and younger people. MN is the only place I have seen these views, oh and certain older feminists as well.

To the point that it totally shocked me when I first noticed, because it's just not something that you regularly see in the real world.

I would have thought that a transwoman would have so much empathy for another human being becasue of their own struggles, not lest issues with privacy in toilets, that they would be quite happy to understand that a woman who has been raped might want another biological woman to undertake an exam.

But if they don't then it just proves that transwomen can be selfish and insensitive just like any other person. Because being a minority does not make you an automatic saint, to be held above all others.

loops, no, I don't think it's hard to discuss as you say, and if that's what's happening there isn't a problem - but everything you write suggests it isn't, that gender critical ideas are shut down, shut out an laughed at. Perhaps it's because of your experience of debate: I am also surprised than in seminars you regularly didn't agree. Were all your seminars/modules compulsory? We, for the most part, choose our modules so largely the people choosing the modules are fairly similar, then everyone is split up into smaller groups. So you might get a group that mostly agrees, and a group that vehemently doesn't, I may have been fortunate to be in groups that mostly agree. Again, we don't agree on everything, but on the big stuff we did, and we've had feminism discussions where people did not ID as feminist at all (mostly because they viewed feminism in a fairly derogatory way) the people who did ID as feminist mostly shared the 'sort' of feminism they ascribed to
I just don't recognise this as academic debate. No, our misuses weren't mostly compulsory. We chose what we were interested in/what went together well. The fact we were all interested in, as one example, 'Cinema, literature and society in Britain between the wars' does not in any way imply we all agreed about the topic! There weee Marxist views, feminist views, capitalist views, Fabian socialist views...all these are pretty much in conflict. We discussed and argued and were often able to find common ground, but completely agree? No. I'm really sorry for you if your experience of academic debate is general agreement. How are you supposed to learn?