To not understand why grenfell victims want the investigation panel to include Morrocan and Nigerian ethnicities

[Ijustwantaquietlife]

Surely the only thing that's important is they are experts with experience or knowledge? I can't see why ethnicity even gets into it.

Maybe I'm missing something but hecking the current panel and calling for them to be replaced as they are "too white" just doesn't sit very well with me.

I simply don't understand the relevance of who was in the fire. What if every flat had been an Air BnB? Or a private rental? Or a pop-up brothel? The flat rented to the Italian architect couple who died looked very nice.

If there is any relevance, then the issue of illegal subletting and overcrowding should be addressed, although this is not unique to mainly council-owned blocks. But this is not directly linked to the fire . It could have been caused by a lone occupant's fridge, or a fridge shared by 20 people.

Actually the fire could have happened in any city where the blocks were clad in this material where the occupants would have had a different make up.

I simply don't understand the relevance of who was in the fire.

That doesn't mean it isn't relevant. Would a different population have been listened to about safety concerns, for example?

Let me imagine this. (It doesn't take a lot of imagination because of various aspects of my past life.)

I am low-waged. I am not from a white British background. I live in social housing. I have a degree of disability which means that it would take me longer to get out of building in a hurry than many other people. Nevertheless I have been housed on the 20th floor of a building which has not been fitted with sprinkers and where cladding that in other countries cannot be used above lower floors has been applied

For a long time I have been unhappy about various safety issues in the tower block where I live and have raised concerns repeatedly to the housing management group has been unresponsive and so have my local councillors. The ruling majority of my councillors are not like me. They own their own houses. They are white and able bodied and English is their first language. Most of them do well paid jobs and come from rich families. Some of them own other property and let it out. They support a party which believes in 'making a bonfire of red tape.

Then there is a fire. My friends and relatives have died. For a long time I wait and hope they are alive. I have lost all my possessions. I and my children am sent to a hotel. I have to leave the hotel. People donate money too help me but the donations are not released and shared out.

The Government decides to hold an enquiry and it seems that the people on the board of this enquiry will be as white and as rich and from the same social background as the people who never listened to me on the Council. As those people whose inability to listen meant that my friends and my relatives are dead.

Do I feel that I can trust the Government and the skills of the rich white privileged people?

Since when did it become socially acceptable to call all white people privileged? I thought the days of stereotypes were long gone. It's about as unacceptable as saying all black people are good at sport or all scousers are theives. Why is this ok or are white people just an easy target now?

There should be a mix of people on the panel - genders, background, class, colour, education etc. Don't put someone in the panel just because of the colour of their skin - they might turn out to be just as useless as the white privileged person.

Doubt it. My aunt lives in a tower block in a midlands town. The occupants there are largely supported people/ex prisoners/drug users... If a fire had happened there would people be insisting the panel should be composed of people like them?

As others have said, the occupants should have a say and be heard, but it's not about them and their lives , it's about the circumstances of the fire.

I think in terms of the population of Kensington, a overwhelmingly rich borough , the councillors are privileged.

Lawyers who are invited to preside over enquiries tend to come from a similar background to Kensington councillors.

I think there is also a degree of privilege enjoyed by all White UK people in that they are not told to off back to where they came from.

This is not a privilege that is universally shared.

then the issue of illegal subletting

This is a convenient unsubstatiated claim. They knew exactly how many tenants were in those flats. They keep saying this themselves when asked why the rest of the dead haven't been accounted for.

Overcrowding. Well this happens up and down the country. Even more so now with the introduction of the benefit cap and the bedroom tax / spare room subsidy/ whatever people wish to call it. Shoehorning a family of five into a 3 bed flat is becoming the norm. Sadly.

I think in terms of the population of Kensington, a overwhelmingly rich borough , the councillors are privileged.

So what? They were democratically elected, and are therefore directly representative of their constituents.

Lawyers who are invited to preside over enquiries tend to come from a similar background to Kensington councillors.

People working in high-status jobs tend to be of high status themselves (not that all lawyers come from privileged backgrounds). Will the surprises ever stop coming?

It's a problem of inequality. If a borough is 90% very rich and 90% of those democratically elected are very rich and it is their voices which hold sway and they do not listen to the impoverished 10% - who are the ones who lose their homes and lives - should the 10% feel that the system can be trusted?

We don't live in a socialist republic just yet. In a democracy, the majority rules, whether rich or poor. In Kensington, it so happens the majority tends to be better off. In other constituencies, the majority isn't. Them's the breaks.

Except the majority of people in the UK aren't rich & public school educated, yet look at our politicians. There's no way you can argue that the fair representation with the UK govt.

And btw, the UK is a socialist republic (and monarchy). I think you're confusing socialism & communism. They are different ideological & economic models.

Except the majority of people in the UK aren't rich & public school educated, yet look at our politicians. There's no way you can argue that the fair representation with the UK govt.

The idea that "representation" = "exactly like the electorate in every way" is a fallacy. The UK government is representative because it was democratically elected, i.e. chosen by the electorate, not identical to the electorate, which is far more important that any identity criterion.

which would be fine if the choice was better. But there's a distinct lack of diversity in those standing for election in many areas.

It sounds like you enjoy inequality and are happy to see it continuing.

It sounds like you enjoy inequality and are happy to see it continuing.

Inequality will continue as long as the human race is human, no matter what you and I might think about it. Perhaps have a think about what attempting to eliminate inequality would mean in practice, and what kind of authoritarian measures it would require.

Well, it could start by NOT having an all white panel to investigate GT. I'm pretty sure that any white lawyers/judges/police have the same ability to be impartial as black lawyers/judges/police. Having the enquiry held just by white people looks remarkably thoughtless, and potentially goady.

It's hardly oppressive to expect top-ranking govt officials to think for two seconds about these things and make better choices.

But they're not asking for a BME Judge. They're asking that they're represented properly. Which they're entitled to do.

Did you hear the clip of all the hecklers and hear any of the people being interviewed? Lots of them are asking for exactly that and have been shouting for the judge to stand down ever since he was appointed as he "doesn't represent" them.

I'm pretty sure that any white lawyers/judges/police have the same ability to be impartial as black lawyers/judges/police.

Having the enquiry held just by white people looks remarkably thoughtless, and potentially goady.

Do you really not see the logical contradiction between those two statements? The first implies - quite correctly - that the race of the investigators is irrelevant. The second implies that their race is all-important.

Which is it?

The race of the investigators is not irrelevant when they are the same race, yet different to the majority of the victims.

It's only acceptable if you think that racism doesn't exist and has never existed.

One refers to the abilities of the individual people involved, the other to the overall make-up of the panel.

Also - I said they are equally able to be impartial - and earlier I said that that no-one can be truly impartial. In other words any/all judges etc. have partiality. Therefore, to make sure that it isn't just one kind of bias, there should be diversity. Diversity is a way of ensuring impartiality. It brings balance to the bias. There's a LOT of research on this. Anyone wanting to create un un-biased, balanced view, needs to have a broad range of views taken into account. So, a range of different people need to be involved, otherwise bias is being created before the enquiry even begins.

So why shouldn't the people from GT ask for less bias, and want better impartiality?

This is an enquiry. So the people on it will call everyone they can from the potentially delinquent council, government on policies on firechecks to the firefighters who couldn't get there, to the people who parked their cars so the big machines couldn't get there in time and the architects, planning officers, fire officials who signed it off before the event and those who advised people to stay in their flats,, local council. They will be calling in every one and ask for everyone's queries, statements and try to work it through.

They may be white and rich (most lawyers at that level of every colour are) but they are increasingly speedy to take the government to task. And the papers will be on their tail if one seems to be connected to another.

In the meantime local councils are stripping buildings including hospitals, schools and flats of the wretched cladding.
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There could be an investigation panel which is not this enquiry which could include everyone of whatever origin who were affected and perhaps they could feed through to the enquiry? That would be enormously useful and very powerful.

On top of which they could keep a list of the failures to rehouse, clothe and sort out schooling, jobs - did I understand no one in Grenfell is going to be pursued for their immigration status?

If you don't trust the judiciary, fight fire with fire. Don't complain and organise. Take your own affidavits of what happened in that awful time and present them. And dont trust hawking solicitors offering you millions.

noblegiraffe & KickAssAngel

So you're seriously telling me that if a similar case happened but with the demographics reversed, for example in another part of the UK or in an enclave of English expats abroad, and the white English residents there insisted that only ethnic Anglo-Saxons of a certain class could represent them properly, then that would be a legitimate request? You'd give them your full support? I certainly wouldn't, and that's why I don't support the idea that representation is inextricable from identity in this case either.

MrsSummerisle do you think it is simply a coincidence, a random concatenation of events that the victims of this awful event were largely from ethnic minorities and the panel of experts appointed to investigate are white? That your reverse scenario is somehow even remotely likely in the UK, let alone equally likely?

Of course my reverse scenario is possible, certainly amongst the many expat English communities abroad. Try answering my question - I'm not surprised you won't because to do so would torpedo the whole basis for "representation = identity" being a good idea.

As far as I'm aware, expat English communities are not normally housed in unsafe towerblocks by the authorities of the country they are living in.