To not understand why grenfell victims want the investigation panel to include Morrocan and Nigerian ethnicities

[Ijustwantaquietlife]

Surely the only thing that's important is they are experts with experience or knowledge? I can't see why ethnicity even gets into it.

Maybe I'm missing something but hecking the current panel and calling for them to be replaced as they are "too white" just doesn't sit very well with me.

what Tabulahrasa says.

OP, cathf has a history of posting slightly prickley threads on the subject, and has a bit of a bee in her bonnet about it. Threads about Grenfell are allowed, just not those kind.

And yes, what noble and horse said.

You need to go away and read the entire works of Kristie Dotson and Miranda Fricker and then come back when you know a bit more about epistemology.

Maybe I'm missing something

Yeah, you are.

Let's say there was a terrible scandal concerning something which largely affects only women. Abortion rights, rape survivors, domestic violence etc. An inquiry is announced.

The panel are all male.

Would you trust its conclusions?

It shouldn't matter but clearly it does. And you can't blame the victims who incidentally are only victims because of rich white people deciding they don't matter as much for wanting to feel as of there is some understanding of their back grounds.

As pp said it's not really any different to a room.full of men deciding on women's reproductive rights.

The panel also needs to include social housing tenants.

Their homes and the lives of their relatives were destroyed because a bunch of predominantly rich white men from the establishment decided to cut corners,. Now a bunch of largely rich white establishment figures, have asked another bunch of rich white establishment figures to investigate the first bunch of predominantly rich white establishment men, who made decisions about the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower.

I don't doubt they will in their own way be scrupulous and honest, un their enquiry,, but they have no direct experience of the lives the residents of Grenfell lived and of the victims are entitled to have confidence in the enquiry team. Ignoring their concerns will make whatever report that comes out look like a whitewash and the establishment looking after their own.

They have a point! Look st the time it took toget the truth about Hillsborough

I do get what you're saying. However, that was a different era. In an era, where celebrities were openly molesting children and getting away with it. I don't think Hillsborough could happen these days in the advent of the smart phone and social media. This country is also incredibly PC.

Personally, I don't think ethnicity should be a basis for choosing experts. I understand the need for various jury panels to be of a certain demographic and as non biased as possible. However, is not in the remit of these experts to pass judgment on the residents nor would if be possible for them to abuse their position in this way. This is a human tragedy. I can't think they'll be going round with the mindset that the residents were "lesser than" because of their social/economic status or ethnicity. Even if they did, the outcome of any enquiry would remain the same. The facts of causation and effect speak for themselves and cannot be denied. The general public would surely not allow it to.

You dont understand why people would like the panel to reflect a multicultural demographic?

Helena

Ok. Maybe I'm missing something now. Surely the residents would be consulted at every step of the way. Idk how helpful (or unhelpful) having social housing tenants on the panel would be as I dont understand how this panel will function. They have expertise of living there, agreed. But I thought the panel is for experts, not residents.

I would also prefer that they were not sock puppets of Momentum, but that's a separate issue.

I've worked in social housing in London for many years and entirely disagree with statements that those employed in it to make the decisions are overwhelmingly "rich white men" or the "establishment". Everywhere I've ever worked has been generally representative of the wider London population. Believe it or not, many of my colleagues live in accommodation which is less desirable, secure and well-maintained than that many of our tenants live in; and several of my colleagues are social tenants or owner-occupiers of ex-social properties themselves.

I don't disagree that the Grenfell panel should include people from BME backgrounds and be generally representative of the London population; although there seems to be an implication that these people will necessarily be from poor or deprived backgrounds as well, which is a bit offensive, really.

Surely the residents would be consulted at every step of the way.

When Journalists have to obtain a court order to attend something they should ans usually do attend freely with no issue. What makes you think they're going to be open and transparent with tenants?

I can see their point. As a working class woman do I want a bunch of middle/upper class privately educated men deciding about proposals that affect me? No, there is so much ingrained sexism in this society that I'd be up in arms about it. It's the same for the people from Grenfell - I can empathise with their situation but I know f* all about what it's like for them so how am I qualified to decide anything that affects their life?

As pp said it's not really any different to a room.full of men deciding on women's reproductive rights.

Exactly that.

Kensington and Chelsea councillors.

Mummyof The enquiry needs to also involve the fact that the residents did warn the TMO about the problems like the power surges and shoddy workmanship and were ignored and had their concerns minimised.

I think it would be a lot harder for a repeat of Hillsborough to happen today but that doesnt stop people trying Hillsborough type tactics. At least one Grenfell resident had her Twitter account hacked and her real time tweets about Grenfell removed so had to put them up again. Ive seen many disgustingly racist and classist posts on twitter directed at the residents. Also posts about how they should be grateful for what they get re. housing. But this is the attitude SH tenants encounter all the time and is part of the problem. SH tenants being told they should be grateful for things like repairs because its "free" a. its not free. b. even if it is or was does that mean they should be grateful for dangerous shoddy workmanship because its "free"

These attitudes towards tenants are ingrained and the tenants fears will be that some people on this panel may have these attitudes either conciously or sub conciously. This will likely be what they are scared of.

As a white women I would not expect that all white women would speak from my point of view or experience. Class, sexuality and other factors all affect our life experience. It seems a bit naive to think that because someone is from a specific cultural or ethnic background they will be able to speak for everyone from that background!

I hope that the inquiry is as thorough and fair as it can be.

I've worked in social housing in London for many years and entirely disagree with statements that those employed in it to make the decisions are overwhelmingly "rich white men" or the "establishment"

I'm not talking about housing officers on the ground, but the people who made decisions, hired and fired contractors and set the budget

Rock Fielding Mellon

I'm not flattering myself Helena, I am just amazed that every time I post, you appear within minutes to point people to previous posts I have made.
I admit I am interested in Grenfell, but I like to think I am allowed to be, even though I don't agree with you? It's the ex-journ in me - I have covered many stories of this ilk - although none as serious as Grenfell, granted.
As I have said, public attitudes follow a certain pattern, and it will happen here, believe me.

It should be by the people qualified to do the job, whoever that may be.

Last night on Channel 4 news it was mentioned how overworked a lot of housing officers are. Many are now doing safety visits post Grenfell. But they are given so many flats to visit Too many for just one officer.

The workload on just one HO is ridiculous.

Well, I had friends who lost people at Hillsborough and my uncle was at the game (he wasn't hurt), so I know what it's like to have an inquiry that doesn't represent the people involved at all.

The Grenfell victims were ignored for years by the establishment who just wanted nothing to do with them, so I don't blame them for wanting proper representation on the panel.