Man in ladies toilets

[ItsAHardKn0ckLife]

Okay I'm not sure if I'm being unreasonable here, husband works away, have an unwell toddler and I'm a little sleep deprived. So not sure if emotions are getting the better of me.

Popped into our local M&S, DS (2yo) in tow. Needed to use the toilet before shopping. Walk into the ladies (small bathroom, only 2 cubicles) to an older man and woman (late 60's at a guess) changing a babies nappy. I stopped in my tracks, confused, checked I'd definitely walked into the right toilets.
I said "you are aware this is the ladies?"
"Yes" the woman replied, "have you got a problem?"
"Erm, well yes actually I have"
Cue lots of tutting and huffing and puffing whilst I waited patiently for him to leave.
On their way out of the door I was told I was being "absolutely ridiculous" and "totally unreasonable".
In hindsight I probably should have ignored, but I was feeling pretty pissed off so I went to inform a member of staff.
The couple were standing near me and they were shouting that I'm a hypocrite as I took my DS in there with me. Again repeating that I was unreasonable etc and what did I expect them to do? They then walked off.

I ended up crying

The staff were lovely and offered me a very nice cup of tea. I apologised for being an emotional wreck and causing drama.

So was I wrong for being unhappy about this? Would you have said something or just turned a blind eye to him being in there?

Love how this has been irrelevantly boiled down to transgenderism. Even if the proposed law was in place, what does it have to do with this situation? He presumably isn't transgender. Amazing how posters can shoehorn their own agenda into any situation that suits them instead of looking at the actual given information.

Agreed. This is nothing to do with transgender people.

If my friend had walked into this situation she would have had a very debilitating and instant panic attack due to being assaulted in a toilet in a club by a man.

MN seems rather obsessed with men in women's toilets.

If you have the ability to assess that a two year old boy in a women's toilet isn't a threat, surely you have the ability to assess that an older man with a woman changing a babies nappy is surely in the very low risk category?

If we throw context out of the window, then definitely the two year old shouldn't be in there.

Morphene the context is that they were Ina female only space. It's irrelevant whether he was an obvious threat or not. Actually, it appears he did become threatening when questioned about his presence, so that argument doesn't really stand up.
Nobody is saying this particular man was a particular threat, though. It's about a principle. And actually, if he'd explained/apologised the OP would probably not have had an issue. As it was, it seems he got a bit aggressive because she was waiting for her female only space to become female only again.

Zephyr are you so literal that you are unable to see that it is t just about toilets? This thread is because the initial example involved a toilet. The toilet is symptomatic of a wider attitude that a woman's comfort/opinion/feelings are of less importance than a man's.

If people are going to shoehorn trans into the mix, then is it worth pointing out that the 'man' may not have had a penis at all.....I am presuming the OP didn't check before attempting to throw 'him' out?

The fact is, he shouldn't have been in there if there was a changing table in the men's. Regardless of the fact t hat he or his partner may have arthritis. And it's a real shame when some posters tell off and say that it's a shame that she's threatened by an old man just changing a nappy. Frankly that's not the point. Men shouldn't be in there. There is a reason that we don't yet have unisex toilets and by all means get unisex toilets, but women, and some men, want to be reassured that there is only their sex in the toilet with them. For all we know the op has had a very difficult situation with regards this. I do. I don't want men in women's toilets - regardless of what they're doing. YANBU.

I'm really sorry to sound mean OP, but I think YAB a little U.

Nobody voluntarily changes a nappy... I think you have to conclude that if they were both there, they both needed to be there. For whatever reason.

I don't blame you for what you said, it's the type of thing I would say, but in this case perhaps you should have been prepared for their response.... It comes across as defensive (thus backing up my theory they both had to be there and have already worked out there's nothing else that can be done). I'm afraid if you offer a confrontational statement, you have to be prepared to get one back.

If you look at what they were doing (changing a nappy, not hanging round and being weird) they had a reason to be there. Unfortunately it comes back to the requirement for a unisex baby changing area.

You sound like the type of person who would have just shrugged it off if it hadn't been for sleep deprivation and poorly toddler. It's probably best to shrug this off and move on.

Out of interest, if the bloke had offered to leave if you'd taken over assisting the woman, would you have done so? My DH has issues all the time with the location of the baby changing facility. He often wonders what to do if someone objects to his presence and has debated just handing child over to be changed....

Nothing to do with transgender people. It is however to do with men being in women's toilets which is effectively going to be happening a lot more very soon.

How would a Muslim woman have reacted BTW to seeing this elderly man in the toilets changing a nappy? Would she have had to leave the toilet? I ask because I genuinely don't know not to be goady.

YWNBU

cardibach but how can you define this as a 'women's space' when all someone with a penis need to do to be accepted in there is carry a mop?

Is carrying a mop more important than changing a baby?

Either we use our brains when deciding which males can be accepted into this space or we make a blanket rule. Clearly we don't make a blanket rule or the OP's DS, the mop wielder and any male with disabilities would be excluded and they aren't. So back to using our brains then!

mrshopey

The OP hasnt said she was in tears when she spoke to them

She was in tears when they stood outside and yelled at her

Aggressive little buggers werent they

It's not just about actual threat level. It's about a reasonable expectation that the OP or any one of us can undress and perform an intimate act of personal care with no men in the vicinity. That expectation is trampled on if any man can decide he has a legitimate reason to breach that space at the expense of any woman who wants to use the space, as it has been designed and provided for. If we say that if a man can decide if he has a good enough reason and we should all get over ourselves then why have women's toilets at all? And for those of us who are inherently uncomfortable with toileting in the presence of, the earshot of, the potential eyeline of and grasp of, strange men, what are we to do? Put up and shut up?

'So the usual moronic, gaslighting whataboutism. '

Oh please get a grip. It was grandparents changing a nappy.

If you have the ability to assess that a two year old boy in a women's toilet isn't a threat, surely you have the ability to assess that an older man with a woman changing a babies nappy is surely in the very low risk category?

Have you ever seen a two year old boy and/or an older man?

There are very important differences. For one, the two year old is much smaller.
Second, he does not choose to invade women's spaces, he is taken there by his mother.

Unless you want to argue that the elderly man must have been suffering from dementia, he was there in the full knowledge that he would make women uncomfortable.

@Morphene: The mop wielder, just like any other male, ought to politely ask if the toilet is being used by women at the moment, and if he may go there and mop.

Most women aren't going to have a problem with a polite man in the toilets, but those who don't want a male in there should be given privacy.

If I had just been thrown out of somewhere based purely on the fact someone found my gender threatening I would be pissed too.

'I'm changing a baby ffs - get a grip' is likely what would have passed my lips.

THe thing about male attendants - there are always signs up, which acknowledge it's a female space and the need for the sign. Some will take it purely as information, others as a warning. Either response to that sign is fine.

Male entitlement alive and well then toad

If you think children young enough to be supervised being in the opposite sex toilets is the same as a fully grown man in the female toilets then there's no point trying to explain it to you.

What you have taught your daughters is that men go where they want and women should just shut up and put up.

That's just a stupid argument, that.
Calling you a hypocrit because you took your male baby ds in their.
Well its not even an argument its the most daftest statement ever made
So according to her because your ds was born with a penis. HeS expected to go into the toilet on his own.
The cracked cow.
As pp says it doesn't take 2 people to change a nappy.
M&S staff are lovely though. They always have been

I don't see why women and girls are being told to suck it up buttercup, when it is a WOMEN'S toilet!

Because I prefer to take things on a case by case basis. Because the case in the OP is a pretty obvious example of being able to judge low risk.

Because sometimes it's just kind to acknowledge that someone else found themselves in a logistically difficult scenario.

if the man wasnt in the ladies toilet we wouldnt have to use our brains to decide if he was a threat

But I suppose it involved the couple having to use their brains and further thing to add to their other issues ( which have been made up)

I am making up that the couple were ex gang members with anger management issues, they were both covered in gangster tattoos...including one that says

'My turf is where i say it is bitch'

vestal do people do that? Ask male toilet attendants to leave?

At some point there is an unacceptable level of making your own problem everyone else's isn't there?

I mean my DD pathologically hates the police, but I don;t get to ask them to leave anywhere in particular just because they are making her extremely uncomfortable?

Its not hard - adult man = not a woman = don't go into the womens toilet UNLESS there for a specific purpose relating to the service provided ie. cleaner/maintenance etc, obviously.

Changing a shitty nappy that he could have done in the men's is not a good enough reason to be in the women's toilet. Just smacks of entitlement and "oh the girls wont mind a little old man being in here" - well yes, actually, some of us fucking do, and some of us arent afraid to tell them either.

I don't think I'd have minded, but they were v unreasonable to have a go at you when you had ds in tow and they were in the wrong.

Is it acceptable for me to use an accessible toilet if I find myself in a logistically difficult scenario?