To contact social services?

[KizzyKat91]

I can't go into much detail with this one as could be outing, but I'm incredibly concerned about the mental and emotional wellbeing of the children involved and just can't get them off my mind.

I've known the mum for years and she's always struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts. She's had numerous courses of counselling and has been on antidepressants for years/regularly sees the GP etc

She's going through a bad patch again and has admitted she's had very specific suicidal thoughts and has been making plans. She saw the GP the other day and has had her medication increased.

When telling me all of this (in person and on the phone), her children have been present. She's very open about her suicidal thoughts and openly discusses it in front of them. She also talks about her financial problems and the huge amount of debt she is in.

I have gently suggested that maybe she shouldn't tell them these things as it might worry them/upset them (especially the specifics of how she's thought about committing suicide).

Her response was that mental health issues shouldn't be hidden, she has nothing to be ashamed of and that they need to know why she isn't like other mums and sometimes cant get out of bed etc.

But it must be causing them a huge amount of anxiety?? Both seem very immature for their ages, very clingy and the youngest can be very quiet. The oldest also regularly throws temper tantrums and shows a lot of resentment towards the mum, but then gets very upset and guilty and clingy afterwards. Oldest also seems to struggle to make friends with children her age and spends a lot of time with the younger sibling.

I asked the youngest whether he had any plans for the summer holidays and he said he'd probably be at home a lot as mum would be in bed :(

FWIW the children are well fed, well dressed and incredibly loved. They do a lot of out of school activities during term time and want for nothing. The father is around but he works odd shifts and does a lot of overtime.

So they're not being neglected and they're not in any physical danger, but it must be very upsetting and stressful for them. WIBU to contact social services? The whole family needs more support and surely the children could do with some counselling themselves? would social services be able to help with this?

These children are at best emotionally neglected and at worst emotionally abused. They are being harmed every day they live with their mothers mental health needs being put ahead of their own developmental and emotional needs. This isn't the mum's fault, she cannot help being as ill as she is but something needs to be done to protect these children (and their eventual children).

I have no direct experience of SS or NSPCC so don't know if they would be of any help. And if the OPs friend is concealing the full extent of her suicdal thoughts from the GP/School ( and I do have personal experience of the ability of the seriously mentally ill to put on a good front in front of authority figures), she would probably be able to conceal it from them too.

I think approaching Young Carers would be a good start as their focus will be improving the children's situation in the short term. They will also have contacts with SS and NSPCC if needed.

Social services won't touch it. It won't meet todays thresholds.

THIS

however depends if there have also been referrals from GP, school etc.

No that's not what I said at all
What I would do would be -
Discuss the situation with the father and see how he saw it. Explore any alternative options for care of the children with him.
Explore family and friend networks for the children to get taken out over the summer
Refer the children to a young carers project so they can engage in activities and spend time with other children who are going through similar
Refer the family for family therapy so the dynamics can be pulled apart and improved/the children can express their fears and their mother can be supported to hear them
Refer the family to money management
At a minimum

Lucky it is not the job of a lay person to decide if intervention is required but the job of highly qualified and skilled social worker.

Pass on your concerns to SS. If they don't think it is necessary to offer support then they won't.

The mother is so ill that she's unable to prioritize her children's emotional needs over her own. YANBU. As others have said - these children need someone to advocate for them. Please make the call.

Hugely damaging.

I say that as the child of a mother who inflicted all her insecurities and paranoia on her two children.

We grew up terrified. Living in a state of permanent fear doesn't just cause emotional pain, it changes the brain chemistry of the young child.

It's really bloody serious and it's not at all the same as 'being open about mental health'.

She's taken away the foundations of her children's lives. Never knowing if they will have a mother when they get back. Blaming themselves for upsetting her in the slightest way. Watching in fear, hoping their mother won't choose death rather than to be with her children.

These children will be on constant hyper alert. They can't trust life because they know that at any second their whole lives may be ripped apart. They may have turned into 'perfect' children in order to control their future. They may lie awake frantically making plans for what would happen to them if she killed herself. Where would they live? Would their dad take care of them and how as he works so much? Will they get given away? Split up? Who will kiss them good night? Who will get them that magazine they love? Do eggs the special way their mother does?

And I bet they also think... will they find their mothers body? Will it be blood everywhere? Will they see her face?

Or will she do it whilst they're there to see her leave them forever? They may well be playing this scene over and over in their heads, trying to make it come out different, trying to stop it, trying to stop their mother, guarding her all the seconds they can...

Then the money worries, fear of losing their home... God how much more instability and potential tragedy can one adult inflict on their own children?

No this is not a 'being open about mental illness' thing at all.

No good comes out of a parent pushing this horror onto their children. No good, ever, at all.

It's such a selfish thing to do.

At best this parent is too ill to think about what harm she is doing.

At worst she's a nasty selfish person who also happens to have mh illness.

You'll notice all the posters who were brought up like this are saying please help the kids, please don't leave them in this situation.

I'm another one. People could see what my mother was doing to us, and no one helped. We were bullied instead for being overly sensitive and scared and withdrawn.

Me and my dear sister were scarred for a lifetime.

I'm moving heaven and earth not to repeat that pattern of emotional neglect and abuse.

This woman needs help to see the damage she is doing, and given the chance to stop it. Someone needs to know so they can give the children this chance.

Jesus God, the poor kids. This is not being open about mental health problems. No child should ever be burdened with the knowledge that their parent is suicidal and especially not details of any plans. I found out my mum's preferred suicide method when I was 25 (having already known she was probably suicidal for years, though it was never openly acknowledged) and that was bloody bad enough - if I'd been a child it would have been terrifying.

She is too ill to meet their emotional needs. In your shoes I'd probably ring the NSPCC for advice as a first port of call.

Wow!

I'm astounded by the 'keep Your nose out' comments and the 'loved and cared for' assumptions.

Call SS & the NSPCC
Or
your local county council should have a services refrrral form on their website (I use this as part of my job)
In our county it is dealt with by a first response/ mash team and then someone will let you know what action is being taken.
That action might be outreach workers being asked to visit or a social worker visit.

The children in this house are not safe, if this was disclosed to me as a professional I would make a referral.

Equally Barnardos are a great charity for getting involved with young carers and children who need respite from very hard situations.

Your friends children are fortunate that someone like you is there for them.

YANBU OP
Keep Us posted

A mother talking about killing herself in front of her children is not "emotionally open". It's emotional abuse (and I think there's a component of "if I suffer, then they should suffer too" there).

Call Social Services straight away, OP.

Y

Crikey, some posters on here are vile. OP, I can't really give advice as to who you should speak to, but these children do need some sort of professional support. Openly talking about committing suicide in front of the children will not only make them anxious, but could also lead them to believe that they are to blame for the way their Mum feels. Dad is evidently unable to help them as he is using denial and distraction to cope with the situation. Surely this is a form of emotional abuse from both parents.

YADNBU OP and I can only assume that those saying MYOB have not experienced something like this before.

I dealt with a family like this professionally. Mum had bi-polar, regularly self harmed and was extremely open about this and her suicidal thoughts. She had made many suicide attempts. She had 4 teens who seemed to be under the impression that attempting suicide was the completely standard response to any undesirable situation. I remember visiting them once and asking about them and the mum replied "they're not too bad, but dc aged 13 tried to take her own life at the weekend". My face must have been a picture and she laughed and said "it isn't the first time, she's been at it since she was 9!" They were well fed, had all of the best gear and undoubtedly were loved BUT they did not have a mum who could emotionally support them at all, they were propping her up.

Some of these comments saying to keep out of it are disgusting!

OP YANBU ! Please for the children, contact NSPCC first an have a chat with them

Her poor children and feel for all of the posters who grew/grow up dealimg woth similar

I think you need to speak to someone for advice on this OP , whether it is NSPCC or SS .
Those children need help , a trip out to the park isn't going to make up for what they have heard their mother saying , it isn't going to take away the worry and anxiety they probably feel .
I am not going to judge the mother or father because I don't know them and have no idea how ill the mother is at the moment , it may be she simply cannot see the potential for harm in her behaviour .
Doing nothing though, will not improve this situation for anyone .

It is not true that the family won't meant SS thresholds.

Tricky. How about ringing her GP and letting them know. Obviously they can't discuss anything with you but I think you're allowed to tell them things? Then maybe the gp can bring up with her the subject of what is said in front of the kids. Or I do think the nspcc suggestion is a good one. I can't imagine how traumatising it must be to hear your mum discussing potential ways to end her life.

Defined call ss. As a teacher if we had heard any of this it would be a massive safeguarding issue. We would be in an immense amount of trouble if we knew but didn't report it :(

So newmum, despite SWs on here saying this would meet their threasholds for intervention, you know better?

wellthis I am so sorry for what you went through. All those posters who think the OP should "keep her nose out", have you read posts from people who went through this as children.

Sorry twofalls my comment wasn't clear - wrote in a rush. I meant that there are very high thresholds these days but there may have been other referrals, e.g. from the school, which sometimes sit there until they have evidence of it being more than a one off. Didn't mean it to sound like I didn't agree .

Her response was that mental health issues shouldn't be hidden, she has nothing to be ashamed of and that they need to know why she isn't like other mums and sometimes cant get out of bed etc.

That's is not the same as informing your children you're going to kill yourself and it is abuse

So OP are you going to call someone? Did I miss that?

She's clearly not meeting their emotional needs and that IS neglect and it IS a safeguarding issue. The dad may well be working hard but in leaving her to act this way with the children he's just enabling her. You can call nspcc for advice, or your local council (SS department) they'll triage your call and advise you on whether they would assist. I should think they will, surely she would qualify for early help at least?

If it helps any, I called NSPCC about a child I was concerned about, basically the concern was about they were a toddler and in a kind of attic room with a ladder up to it, I worried it was dangerous. I wasn't sure, so rang to speak about it. They sent SS round the next day for a chat. I know as the mum told me about it. They moved soon after. So things are taken seriously.