To contact social services?

[KizzyKat91]

I can't go into much detail with this one as could be outing, but I'm incredibly concerned about the mental and emotional wellbeing of the children involved and just can't get them off my mind.

I've known the mum for years and she's always struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts. She's had numerous courses of counselling and has been on antidepressants for years/regularly sees the GP etc

She's going through a bad patch again and has admitted she's had very specific suicidal thoughts and has been making plans. She saw the GP the other day and has had her medication increased.

When telling me all of this (in person and on the phone), her children have been present. She's very open about her suicidal thoughts and openly discusses it in front of them. She also talks about her financial problems and the huge amount of debt she is in.

I have gently suggested that maybe she shouldn't tell them these things as it might worry them/upset them (especially the specifics of how she's thought about committing suicide).

Her response was that mental health issues shouldn't be hidden, she has nothing to be ashamed of and that they need to know why she isn't like other mums and sometimes cant get out of bed etc.

But it must be causing them a huge amount of anxiety?? Both seem very immature for their ages, very clingy and the youngest can be very quiet. The oldest also regularly throws temper tantrums and shows a lot of resentment towards the mum, but then gets very upset and guilty and clingy afterwards. Oldest also seems to struggle to make friends with children her age and spends a lot of time with the younger sibling.

I asked the youngest whether he had any plans for the summer holidays and he said he'd probably be at home a lot as mum would be in bed :(

FWIW the children are well fed, well dressed and incredibly loved. They do a lot of out of school activities during term time and want for nothing. The father is around but he works odd shifts and does a lot of overtime.

So they're not being neglected and they're not in any physical danger, but it must be very upsetting and stressful for them. WIBU to contact social services? The whole family needs more support and surely the children could do with some counselling themselves? would social services be able to help with this?

[Rinkydinkypink]

Social services won't touch it. It won't meet todays thresholds.

[Purplemac]

YANBU and I am really surprised that anybody could tell you to mind your own business when a woman is talking about killing herself in front of her children.

My cousins mum (my uncle's ex wife) was diagnosed with a brain tumour six years ago when her daughter's were 14 and she constantly spoke about her impending death in front of them and it was very traumatic for them. She is still alive, very poorly but still alive, and I consider what she did to her daughters to be emotional abuse (she also made them plan her funeral). I think its the same with your friend - there is a big difference between being open about mental health issues and traumatizing your children by talking about killing yourself.

[dangermouseisace]

YANBU to feel like you need to tell someone.

I have depression, and I've had SS involvement. SS priority is the welfare of the children, what is best for the children and hearing mum's suicide plans definitely is NOT in the children's best interests. They need to know that mum is not well, that she can get better, that it's not their fault- that kind of knowledge is helpful with regards MH.

Do the kids go to nursery/school/have a health visitor? If so it might be worthwhile having a chat with those that are already involved with the children, then they can do the referring IYSWIM. That would also means someone who is involved with the kids right now knows what is going on (I appreciate school might be off now but nursery etc might not be)

Parental MH problems will affect children. The aim of parents/health people/SS should be to try and minimise the negative effects on them. What your friend is doing will unfortunately unintentionally amplify the effects and someone needs to make this clear to her, and work with the family to try and mitigate any issues the kids might have arising from their knowledge. That isn't going to happen if you say nothing, infortunately. Please tell someone.

[TheFirstMrsDV]

Its emotional abuse.
She knows she is doing it but has zero insight into how it is affecting her kids.
She is over burdening them.
She is constantly reminding them that their world is not safe.
She is risking attachment disorders in those kids.

That doesn't mean I don't have empathy or concern for her but the children's welfare comes first.

[Lurkedforever1]

Please call social services op. As already said ss isn't about swooping in to steal her dc. Being fed and well clothed is less important than a stable home, and even though it's her mh causing it, rather than cruelty, it's still emotional abuse which has long lasting repercussions.

As to those saying to mind your own, you should be ashamed. How the fuck anyone in this day and age can condone emotional abuse because the kids don't look physically neglected is beyond me. And clearly anyone with this view isn't thinking of the mothers interests either.

[NinonDeLenclos]

With concrete plans this is a safeguarding issue, quite apart from the emotional harm of hearing sucidal ideation, so absolutely it should be reported to SS. If you'd rather contact the NSPCC they may be able to do it for you.

Has your friend been assessed in the past by a psychiatrist? I'm concerned that this is apparently being managed by the GP. GPs have little mental health training, and do not have the expertise with mental health medication that psychiatrists do. Ideally she should be referred back to whatever psychiatrist she saw in the past.

[Theresnonamesleft]

Gp's don't always refer though because they don't always know the full picture. Is she telling the gp for example she is having these conversations in front of them?

My experience was I went to the gp, I told them I was sh, they asked did I need medical intervention. I told them about the dark thoughts. I mentioned the hallucinations and the lack of sleep. I had made plans and I was shitting myself that I would go through with it during my lucid moments and these where the times I took steps to not be able to kill myslef. The gp just did a meds review. I should have been referred then.
When crisis took over they were mortified that I had been left like this. Unfortunately crisis here is only 6 weeks. But they discharge me and call me a few days later to see how I am knowing I won't call them and take me back on their books. They have little confidence with the gp.
Like I said the dc's now have support they need. They are able to vent in a safe space. They are working at dealing with their emotions. If that referral had not been made they wouldn't have a damn thing in place.

If op does nothing where can the dc's go? How do they get help? They only have each other to talk to and will they really talk to each other about this? Even if they do they won't have the resources to cope with this.

[ButtMuncher]

I think people who are up in arms at the idea of SS being consulted for advice (not necessarily reported) should have a long look at the posters opening up to how hard they found being exposed to a parent with very overt MH issues, and wind it in a bit.
OP quite clearly isn't looking to cause her friend anymore harm or stress than is necessary but at the heart of it there are two children who need their MH advocated for.

OP - I have a friend who sounds remarkably similar - she posts about her suicidal thoughts and self harm ideations, as well as every minute detail of her life on her social media accounts, which inexplicably she allows her young son to access as she's allowed him various accounts at aged 10. We've tried to remind her of social media policy's (under 13s shouldnt have FB accounts at all) but she persists. I cannot imagine how her son feels amidst seeing his mother posting some of the stuff she does, and we work hard as a group of friends to ensure he has outlets to talk if needs be (he has regular sleepovers and outings with us, so time for him and also time for his mum to regroup). We support her best we can, but we are also aware when she's at her worst she can be very manipulative, so as a group of friends we often find she dances in and out of contact but she does know no matter what we are there for her, we just don't tolerate being lied to or stolen from etc.

Ultimately she isn't harming him or neglecting him,so we've not needed to broached the subject elsewhere as generally her claims of suicide genuinely are part of her need for attention, so we know although she will post about it, it's done to illicit a response (usually from whoever she is currently seeing romantically) which once complete, the suicidal talk disappears for a few weeks.

This obviously sounds like it differs from your friend who sounds more chronically depressed rather than perhaps emotionally unstable, which means her need for help is probably more urgent. I would speak to NSPCC as you've already mentioned and take it from there. A chat with MIND may be a good idea too and see if they have advocacy groups for children, they may very well have support groups or mentor/buddy type systems which look to keep an eye out on the wellbeing of children exposed to parental MH issues.

As a sufferer, more seriously in the past (I was suicidal for years myself) and as a parent, I have always done my upmost to limit exposure of my illness to almost anyone. Not because I'm ashamed or because I feel I can't, but because it's personal to me and those closest to me - except my children. However, the most serious of illnesses probably don't make allowances for who you choose to be ill in front of, but you can certainly limit what your kids hear of how you feel if talking about it in conversation.

[NinonDeLenclos]

I'm sorry to hear it nonames - that's a very good example. GPs don't refer on when they should, try to manage serious mental health conditions themsleves when they don't have the competence, and then the situation escalates.

[cragsandmountains]

YANBU. I can't believe people are advocating that kids hear this kind of stuff.

[RebelRogue]

YANBU. Your friend is getting help and support. Someone needs to help those kids as well. Even if your friend gets better/stops doing it in front of the kids, her words and the damage they are causing won't magically dissapear.

[Nubia66]

Social services won't touch it. It won't meet todays thresholds.

I disagree. Although different SS departments have varying thresholds, thankfully they are now more clued up to the serious implications of emotional abuse. The mother's behaviour will undoubtedly cause significant harm to the children. And this is especially so, if there's a risk of her taking her life. She is clearly not capable of protecting the children from her anxieties and therefore if she did attempt suicide it won't be in a way that is (relatively) sensitive to their feelings. Forgive me if I've missed this but where is the father? It may mean the children being removed from their mothers care to a relative for a while to protect them whilst she's being treated.

[codswallopandbalderdash]

I haven't read the whole thread but I am pretty cross with some of the comments about social services on here. Social workers are trained professionals and will not react disproportionately. I have had to call SS previously with concerns (vulnerable adult, with mental health problems) and found them v professional.

It may well be that your friend already has a social worker and your input may help her in that she gets more specialist or family support, as you are adding more useful information to their knowledge. Or social work may call the GP in confidence and say that your friend's mental health seems to be a particular issue at the moment.

Yes it is good for people with suicidal thoughts to share their feelings but with a suitable friend/adult not a vulnerable dependent child

[acquiescence]

A referral to SS does not necessarily result in an SS assessment. In my city there are 'early help' teams connected to SS which provide additional support to parents who are struggling, including with MH.
I believe that what your friend is doing could be considered emotional abuse, depending on the age of the children. If they are experiencing high levels of emotional distress that could be avoided then there is a need for some action to be taken.

[dangermouseisace]

to those questioning what SS would do.

Dunno about OPs area but my kids have been referred to SS for less (just me being very suicidal/unwell for a long time).

SS did assessments, spoke to children to find out their understanding with regards me being unwell. The social worker helped explain to them what was going on in a child friendly matter, in a way that I couldn't (I pretended everything was fine). They looked at what support was in place for them e.g. Family members. They made sure the school were aware of difficulties and ensured that the children had a named contact in school they could talk to if worried, and that person could act as a contact with social services if necessary. The schools, to be fair, made less demands on me and offered more support to the children than would have ordinarily happened. They planned with the children about what they should do if they were worried about me or themselves, and how they could contact other people e.g. other family members.

If I were one of those people with no social support, there could have been a family support worker allocated. This was not necessary for us but this is an example of what is out there.

My children benefitted from SS involvement, no question about it, and the benefits outweighed the negative aspects greatly (my own distress at the situation). Even if SS are so overburdened they do nothing (though I severely doubt it in this situation) it's worthwhile having that discussion.

[Theresnonamesleft]

Ninon I think that's what some of the posters don't realise. The gps just prop you up with drugs. The meds I am on now would never have been prescribed by the gp they can only come from a psychiatrist. There's lots of drugs out there. I tried a few others and took 3 days and said no. The gp when faced with this said just push through. Psychiatrist said ok let's try something else.

Aquisence that's what I have. Lower level support from a ss umbrella. They have arranged things that the gp doesn't know existed or only can be accessed via their referral.

And again I ask if nothing is done to those who are saying don't report. How do the children get the help and support they will need? Or do their emotional needs not matter?

[LovelyBath77]

That is good to hear Dangerous. I wonder if some on here maybe have some kind of outdated believe of SS - not sure.

[AdalindSchade]

What do posters think SS would do in this instance?

I already answered that. I'm a SW.

[AdalindSchade]

Social services won't touch it. It won't meet todays thresholds

Not true at all

[LovelyBath77]

GP here does continue to prescribe the drugs prescribed by the psych though. I'm on two different anti-ds and antipsychotics and GP prescribes these, OK.

[AdalindSchade]

dangermouse thanks for that great post

[ProphetOfDoom]

TheFirstMrsDV is right.

As a school we would report this as a safeguarding issue. The rights of the child are to feel safe and secure.

I'm sorry for your friend who must be in deep distress but what she is doing to the children is wrong. They must be incredibly frightened and scared.

Since school is out for the summer I would talk to the NSPCC. Are there other family - grandparents/aunts/uncles - who could offer support/comfort/safety so the children always have a safe haven.

[lemonandelderflower]

But Adalind you seem to be approaching it from the angle that the mother needs support with parenting and running the home, when the fact the children are well dressed and provided for suggests she's managing just fine with that. Depression can mean that other things fall apart, but not always.

[JayneAusten]

My dad used to talk about suicide a lot. Never attempted it.

It was pretty emotionally crippling, to be honest. Even now I'm scared that if I fall out with someone they may go and kill themselves, and I'm scared to have any negative interactions in case it's 'the last time' with that person.

Yes, contact SS.

[Serialweightwatcher]

I agree that you should tell someone - maybe have a word with her GP - I know they can't discuss her with you as such, but maybe they could get her a mental health worker or someone in that sort of capacity who could talk to her and maybe even the children ... I don't think it should be left because they must be so frightened and not know who to talk to about it. They shouldn't have to listen to this at all - I know she is ill but can't she understand how scared they must be?