To contact social services?

[KizzyKat91]

I can't go into much detail with this one as could be outing, but I'm incredibly concerned about the mental and emotional wellbeing of the children involved and just can't get them off my mind.

I've known the mum for years and she's always struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts. She's had numerous courses of counselling and has been on antidepressants for years/regularly sees the GP etc

She's going through a bad patch again and has admitted she's had very specific suicidal thoughts and has been making plans. She saw the GP the other day and has had her medication increased.

When telling me all of this (in person and on the phone), her children have been present. She's very open about her suicidal thoughts and openly discusses it in front of them. She also talks about her financial problems and the huge amount of debt she is in.

I have gently suggested that maybe she shouldn't tell them these things as it might worry them/upset them (especially the specifics of how she's thought about committing suicide).

Her response was that mental health issues shouldn't be hidden, she has nothing to be ashamed of and that they need to know why she isn't like other mums and sometimes cant get out of bed etc.

But it must be causing them a huge amount of anxiety?? Both seem very immature for their ages, very clingy and the youngest can be very quiet. The oldest also regularly throws temper tantrums and shows a lot of resentment towards the mum, but then gets very upset and guilty and clingy afterwards. Oldest also seems to struggle to make friends with children her age and spends a lot of time with the younger sibling.

I asked the youngest whether he had any plans for the summer holidays and he said he'd probably be at home a lot as mum would be in bed :(

FWIW the children are well fed, well dressed and incredibly loved. They do a lot of out of school activities during term time and want for nothing. The father is around but he works odd shifts and does a lot of overtime.

So they're not being neglected and they're not in any physical danger, but it must be very upsetting and stressful for them. WIBU to contact social services? The whole family needs more support and surely the children could do with some counselling themselves? would social services be able to help with this?

Social services
Do not just remove children they also work with families and in cases such as this they may be able to offer further support to parents and offer the children clubs day care or even parental support for the mother. They can also speak to health professionals and push waiting list or help with other specialist services.

The children are suffering emotionally and whilst there needs are
Being met so they feel safe and emotionally health with a mother who is suicidal personally I think this needs reporting.

Think I will contact the NSPCC for advice.

I am worried that she will view SS involvement as an "attack" rather than a way of getting support and help. However, I feel like I'm trying to decide between protecting her and protecting the children. I feel like someone needs to put the children first.

I've tried to talk to the husband before, but he seems very closed off and in denial. He agrees to everything she wants and agrees with everything she says as I think he's worried about upsetting her. That's why they're in so much debt. She has a shopping addiction and thinks a new car or expensive holiday will stop her feeling depressed. So he works all hours to fund this and everything gets put on credit cards :(

Of course you should contact them. They won't have a go at her or take the children away but they may organise a family and friends meeting to look at who can support the parents to lighten the load, and reduce the impact on the children.
Hearing their mother discuss her plans for suicide is emotionally devastating for children and those saying to keep out should be ashamed of themselves.

The responses saying not to contact SS are only looking at it from the point of view of your friend. They are not considering the impact upon the mental health of the children. As previous posters have said having being the child of a parent with MH issues, their MH has suffered as a result. How is that right or fair? It's not and children have rights as well as the parents.

SS have a reputation for only getting involved with neglect or abuse BUT they can also provide support and services. There are plenty of families involved with SS because of SEN or MH issues and receive support to assist them through difficult times. It's one of the reason social services exists.

YANBU op.

I can't imagine being a child living with the knowledge that any day you could wake up in the morning or come home from school and find your DMum has killed herself. And to be reminded of that regularly, to know how she is planning to kill herself. How can a child develop contentedly and naturally living under that cloud of worry?
At the very least they need their own support and counselling to help them process what is happening.
The long summer holiday must be a nightmare for them - away from school routines and support.
Can you talk to their dad? Or the NSPCC sounds like a good starting point.

They will also try to help the husband to step up and be more protective.
Many a time I have worked with a family where the mum does 90% of the childcare because that's her job and the dad is out of the house 90% of the time, and actually it's because dad is in denial or doesn't want to upset the apple cart any further. A big part of my job then is to open dad's eyes to the situation and get him to take more responsibility.

YANBU. That is first hand information. Yes she is loving and the kids are cared for but hearing your mother plan suicide is awful. Those kids need support. Fyi Im a sw in another country where citizens are obliged to report if they know a child is at risk and the first hand info that you have would be enough to meet that threshold.

You're doing the right thing OP. Those poor kids. It is shocking to talk like that in front of them.

YANBU- I would ring SS for advice

YANBU - this is abuse. Just because she isn't hitting them or failing to feed them doesn't mean that it isn't damaging in its own way.

You could try speaking to NSPCC as a first step. They have an anonymous call line that can give you advice. They can also make a referral to SS on your behalf if you want to go down that route but a step removed IYSWIM

Is there anyway that you could tell her GP your worries about her, obviously without the GP saying anything back to you? Would your friend be open to this idea when you spot signs that perhaps her medication needs tweaking, given that you have known her over such an extended period and can see the day-to-day changes? Especially since she has been so open about her MH issues. Have you spoken to her DH? Maybe he could talk to the family GP?

Can you imagine what it must feel like to wonder if your mum is going to kill herself everytime you go to school ? I know of a case where the woman's husband worked away and she tried to kill herself with the children present. Abuse is not all about being well fed and clothed and SW intervention is not all about " significant harm" there are sliding scales - and guess what they might be able to help. I would hope that the Dr would have already made a referral to SW but you can't rely on her being 100% honest with her / him and that happening. In any event it's useful to have information from someone who knows her well. If it falls below their threshold for involvement your call will at least be recorded and can be used for any future matters that come to attention.

I have not read the full thread but I was the child in this situation. I wish someone had intervened. DMum explained in detail how she was going to kill herself quite frequently. My sister became the resentful one. I was in a permanent state of anxiety and half the time I didn't go to school so I could stay at home to watch my Mum. My childhood was wrecked by anxiety and wondering if I was going to find my mum dead on the floor. Eventually she did kill herself but not until I was a young adult.

I think you are doing the right thing, you sound like a caring friend. Like someone else said, social services won't swoop in and take the children into care but they may arrange for some additional support for the mum and the kids too.
I think it's incredibly unfair to tell you to 'mind your own business'. It's one thing to be open about mental health issues but completely not appropriate for a parent to discuss killing themselves infront of their children. Have you discussed your concerns about your friend with the father?

My mother made a fake (ish) attempt at suicide in front of me when I was little and I've carried that with me for my entire life. I can't believe posters are minimising this - I'm sure the woman will find it stigmatising if SS get involved but that's not what's important here - it's the mental health of her children.

I don't see why people always assume getting SS involved is a bad thing. We are very lucky in this country to have a service like this. SS would help this family by getting them the help they need to able to function properly as a family unit. While helping the mother cope with her mental illness. Absolutely nothing to be ashamed about and well done for thinking about other people and just not yourself OP.
Imo you did the right thing.

I don't think this would be the most supportive course of action. I don;t think the stress it would cause would lead to help for DC. I don't think it's necessary as she is so open and engaged with MH services and GP. I agree being open is not a bad thing (although precise detailing plans in front of children would be)

Nbu, poor woman yes but poor kids. They need help.

I'd bet a lot that the children will be already marked up on the GP system and there will have been a discussion with CP lead.

I think the key thing here is awareness. I have had severe psychotic depression while my children were small and it was extremely hard. However even so I was still aware of and wouldn't have said things like that in front of them BUT at some points I was lacking in insight / awareness to the extent of believing some thing which were not true and sometimes this involved the children. For example I thought the reading books were strange and violent when they weren't really (just teenage books) and things like that. I was never thought at risk to the children and was aware enough to not discuss suicide. But I feel that if your friend is so poorly as to be lacking in awareness of what she is doing and saying, she should be having support from the MH team, including home visits, and they may also liase with SS. So maybe if you encourage her to seek the crisis team type support she may get more support that way. Oh, also something I did was self-refer to SS through my health visitor as a 'Child in Need' case, this was my idea and supported by the HV who explained she wasn't concerned about my parenting but needed support. So it is also possible for her to self refer. They were very good, gave me a safe place to come in to the children's centre for a chat and cut of tea if I felt overwhelmed, and I left their support when I was ready. HTH a little

Jesus I can't believe the responses on here...the kids are loved and cared for? When their mother threatens suicide in front of them? She may love them but being a parent is about more than emotion. Some people on here are defensive about their own failings I think.
Mental health should be discussed, yes, but in an age appropriate manner. If you are incapable of keeping your children safe then it is your responsibility to seek help. Their emotional safety is just as important as physical safety.

OP, make the call. You are a good friend.

No Sparkle I am considering her dc , ss involvement may very well cause her mental health to worsen thus impacting on the dc.

OP maybe contact MIND for some advice? If it's mental health issues they will be able to advise and maybe signpost you

Offer to help and have the kids...will be more use than ss

I have an 11 and 7 year old. I cannot begin to imagine the level of anxiety they would experience if I talked like this in front of them. Horrific.

The DC need support so I would call for advise. The GP may not be aware she is sharing her suicidal thoughts with her children.

Those of you who are saying OP is wrong need to put yourself in a child's place.

Well done for being a good friend OP.