Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

Is Corbyn even aware what TRA's are saying to people online? How active is he on social media? Can threats be screenshot and sent to him? He defended children's rights against F4J and these people seem to be of a similar ilk?

MP's are not on social media like we are. They dont see the harassment.

In fact I just haven't even replied to any of their nasty comments just kept on with the facts and my thoughts on the situation in a calm way. To show up I guess how vitriolic they are by contrast.

Keep up with that strategy if you can. I don't make personal attacks on people, because it undermines credibility.

And remember for everyone posting there will be 100 people lurking. Remaining calm, using citations and logic is far more persuasive than abuse. Being aggressive just alienates people to whom you're talking and those who are listening.

I know it's hard because it's so very personal.

Conceding points is also a good thing. A blanket, adversarial approach gives the perception that you're not listening.

Since the news came out earlier in the week, many women have taken to social media to try and raise awareness. It's shocking and painful seeing the amount of abuse they are being subjected to. And the censorship is nothing short of scandalous.

Yes a couple of people stuck up for me saying the only person who looked like a moron was the person telling me I was one. I just didn't comment. Dignified silence to any abuse always looks better I find. It shows them up whereas if you descend to their level it just disintegrates into a slanging match.

You do really well staying calm and factual, Datun.

I try to do the same - try to model Michelle Obama - they go low, we go high. It's the only way.

In terms of what we can actually do, I'm currently abroad but when I am back in the UK next year, I am planning to get together with like minded souls for a campaign of civil disobedience. Still need to figure out what that looks like, but I imagine it will involve male only spaces. Happy to brainstorm that here! I saw some cracking suggestions, I thought it was on this thread but I can't find it now - must be another thread that I'm on.

I am really angry with the assertion that women have a problem if they don't want strange penises in the changing room or that they should get naked in front of a strange man. I was assaulted by a stranger, a man I didn't know. I was 14. Am I supposed to be ok with that too? Where are the boundaries that these people are setting for me and other women and girls? It's fucking gruesome that people say this shit. Are we not allowed any privacy or body autonomy at all.

Thanks so much for all the kind messages and thoughts. It happened such a long time ago I rarely give it a thought. But clearly pool changing rooms might be a particular issue for me now. or to you all. (Or both?)

Are we not allowed any privacy or body autonomy at all.

That seems to be the idea.

It makes me very angry that even after a couple of users have come out and talked about having been assaulted, the translobby still try to pretend that this never happens, and that they are not misogynists of the worst kind for wanting to take away our privacy.

People in real life don't understand why the transnonsense makes me so angry. This is why. I haven't been assaulted myself, but I am capable of empathy.
(Empathy for women doesn't seem to be very fashionable, though. We are to save all our empathy for the poor menz who have their poor little feelz hurt by women not trusting them.)

PoochSmooch

I'll join you. A night in London visiting every single gentlman's club.

We'll alert the press beforehand.

We'll pick a time, late afternoon, early evening when they have all bogged off there for a quick snifter before they go home.

A peaceful posse of women asking for membership forms. Checking they have breastfeeding rooms, and sanitary bins.

I don't think it's big money that he caused the sudden move to give transgender people extra rights.

It's much more straight forward than that. Transgenderism is the new gay and people don't want to look reactionary by not getting straight on board with the new thinking.

Lots of people got burned by not being supportive of gay rights; something that was very controversial until relatively recently. Less than 30 years ago most people thought homosexuality was morally wrong. They changed their minds, and they can do so once, they can do it again, before experiencing the uncomfortable feeling that their views have become offensively old fashioned. Society has become more liberal; the individual's right to choose what is right is sacrosanct; and it really isn't clear quite where the limits to that are. So it's easier to say viva la difference and jump on the bandwagon.

In fact I just haven't even replied to any of their nasty comments just kept on with the facts and my thoughts on the situation in a calm way. To show up I guess how vitriolic they are by contrast

I haven't had this on-line, but I've had a little in real life and my honest opinion is that a lot of these men are just looking for socially acceptable ways to show their hatred of women.

But also, I think it just proves thae women are stilla t the bottom of the pile.

Just look at the USA election - many/ most people would rather vote for a black man or Trump than a (white) woman. Woman = lowest form.

I know Clinton was deeply flawed/ damaged and so not the best person to be the first female candidate but even if we find another good female candidate - would the result be any different?

Sorry slightly random thought - i'm not well today. The world ahs gone mad :(

It's much more straight forward than that. Transgenderism is the new gay and people don't want to look reactionary by not getting straight on board with the new thinking.

No, I really don't think that is it. It has nothing at all to do with homosexuality; in fact, it is very homophobic. Homosexual children are being transed so their homosexuality is hidden, adult lesbians trans themselves to male to lead a seemingly hetero life.

Trans is a way for deeply sexist, misogynist, conservative people to be on the side of "progressive" for once, without having to change their opinions much.

Men still get to oppress women, even much better and easier, in this brave new world. It takes away NOTHING of male privilege.

That's why so many people jump at it. Nothing to do with regretting having hated homosexuals for nonsensical reasons. Homosexuals always just wanted the right to be themselves, and be safe as themselves.
Trans want others to pretend that they are something they aren't.

Also, it is an opportunity for cowardly women who would never dare oppose a male, to appear feminist by screaming abuse at other women, who they know, deep down, are much less likely to retaliate with violence than men.

It is pretended progress that is in fact the opposite of progress. It appeals in the same way a sugary snack that is allegedly good for your health appeals: People don't want to make an effort, but do want to get to feel virtuous.

Vestal,
I don't disagree with what you say. I agree that there is something homophobic about the reimposition of gender roles that transgenderism entails.

My point is that it's become the latest progressive issue. People want to keep up with the times, so they are accepting it uncritically.

I know Clinton was deeply flawed/ damaged and so not the best person to be the first female candidate but even if we find another good female candidate - would the result be any different?

Probably not. Clintons first mistake was to be a Democrat.

If I look at female heads of state I have heard of, a pattern emerges. Margaret Thatcher was, from all I read about her, deeply reactionary.

Merkel is a member of the most right-wing party in Germany that is still deemed acceptable. (AfD is more right-wing, but considered bonkers by most of the population ... I hope.)

A woman can only have a chance of becoming head of state if she makes it crystal clear that her allegiance is to men, and not to women, that she'll not make any woman-friendly politics.

Then men will help her rise to power so they can use her as a stick to beat their more progressive opponents with: "See, we have a female head of state! No need for feminism anymore!"

My point is that it's become the latest progressive issue. People want to keep up with the times, so they are accepting it uncritically.

I see where you are coming from, but I am sceptical about that. Most people are aware that feminists oppose it.(I have met many a handmaiden who cheerfully used the slur "terf", for example - they know what it means)
If they just wanted to choose the most progressive option, that fact would make them think.

The German Green party has declared they'll promote trans rights (and women's rights, I wonder how they think that'll work) despite having severely damaged their reputation somewhen back in the 70s (before my time, anyway) by supporting pedophiles, thinking it "progressive" that children should have "a right to sex".

You'd think they'd know better than to jump on every new bandwagon labeled "progressive".

So, in short, I do think the main thing is the temptation of not losing any male privilege / not having to oppose males who want to keep said privilege, and at the same time getting to label themselves progressive, that causes it.

Loops sounds young and niave - similar to how i felt about these issues when younger.

I've been flashed at, leered at, threatened, sexually assaulted by males in the street, school, a busy audience, nightclubs, trains, buses - and in communal bathroom/shower room. My mum and her friend were sexually assaulted as kids in a womens loo. Another close female relative raped by 2 men on her way home from school when she was 10.

So why these folk won't take advantage of women's loos, changingrooms etc - i don't know.

And i think more and more will be come unisex/gn as this all plays out - it will just be much easier, cheaper and avoid all the mindfuckery of multiple identities.

I think Toadinthehole is right about Transgender being the new gay.

Folk just feel that to be against anything that's about freedom/ discrimination is to be a horrible nasty bigot. The most important thing is to be seen a progressive, tolerant etc - not a nasty bigot.

I think there are a number of factors at play for why people can be unthinkingly supportive - as indeed I was until I...well, until I wasn't any more!

Socially liberal people pride themselves on being "non-judgemental". What this means is that we like to think we've don't do what has been called "moral disgust". When it comes to, for example, the sexual practices of others, we're at pains to say "hey, no judgement here- you're all adults". Anyone who doesn't hold this viewpoint is felt to have a "phobia" - homophobia, whorephobia, and of course, everyone's favourite "transphobia".

The knee jerk reaction when you are someone who thinks like this (and I am at pains here to say that I am generally one of those people ), is to run like fuck away from being thought to have a phobia of anything to do with sex, sexuality and gender, because, well, that's for bigots, isn't it? It's a button that's very easy to push. But when you dig down, it's not a deeply held belief - I don't think many of the SJWs who happily chirp "transwomen are women" have sex lives that reflect that belief at all. Owen Jones, for example, doesn't

But it's intellectually dishonest to use this to frame the objections of people who disagree with you. I'm not transphobic. I'm gender critical. Some of my friends are appalled by my "transphobia", because they know which side I generally come out on with regard to social issues - they can't understand why I'm not on-side with this, because to them, it's simply what right-thinking people believe.

Vestal,

Really? From my vantage point, feminists have been torn on this, although that's changing. The sheer speed with which this has happened has caught them flat-footed.

The Greens here (NZ) are the same as Germany: totally going with the transgender movement. The majority of both men and women, I think, just shrug and say it can't do any harm: they aren't thinking about this in a feminist way. At least that's my observation.

My mum and her friend were sexually assaulted as kids in a womens loo. Another close female relative raped by 2 men on her way home from school when she was 10.

How did you manage to remain naive about these issues when you were younger when your own mother was sexually assaulted?

Genuine question. I just can't imagine. Didn't she tell you until you were older?

And i think more and more will be come unisex/gn as this all plays out - it will just be much easier, cheaper and avoid all the mindfuckery of multiple identities.

Cheaper, how?
Unless you mean literally forcing women to be naked in front of male strangers.

Campingsites I have been to had one women's shower room with no cubicles. That is obviously much cheaper than providing the same number of showers with cubicles.

It might be cheaper to just declare it a single person unisex shower, but that'll mean there's one shower where there used to be ten.

If that happens here, I will cheerfully go to the pool in a swimsuit I put on at home (and won't take off to shower), and not shower for a week at a camping site. People will just have to deal with the body odour, if they vote for it, they deserve it.

Not sure what to do about peeing. Probably buy one of those devices that enable women to pee like men, and pee at the next corner instead of getting in an enclosed space where male predators have free access.

Really? From my vantage point, feminists have been torn on this, although that's changing. The sheer speed with which this has happened has caught them flat-footed.

Oh, some pro-trans here in Germany (quite a lot, depressingly) call themselves feminists, but they are well aware that feminists oppose this shit. (Those in my local feminist group certainly know that I oppose it, for one.)
The most well-known feminist magazine has drawn attention to the disappearance of lesbians, and mentioned that the gender studies courses at universities don't allow any disagreement with their ideology.

If one wanted to be really progressive, really feminist, really on women's side in this, then one has access to the information needed.

What will happen is that women will just stop. Here and there women will just cancel their gym membership, stay at home for drinks, not visit cities. They'll check the policy at work before they accept the job.

Talking about women's biology, and insisting on rights to accommodate it, will be seen as a little unsavoury. Then as wrong. Then they will be gone.

The woman who represents the women and equalities committee, and the political party that has the words 'women equalities' in the title are both furiously pro men. The Tories did not put trans rights in their manifesto, and yet the woman that heads up that party is now supporting it.

Everywhere I look people are outraged. But no one is listening. It's still going ahead.

The non-trans people who are supporting this are doing it out of ignorance. They have internalised misogyny. They think this is the way things are.

Women's freedom is already being curtailed by legislation. This will just keep going.

Two generations in, women's rights would have been set back 60 years.

AGain, sorry for typing - not well.

Also irrational optimism is a thing now. So long as you are being postive, then it doesn;t matter how ridicultous or unrealsitic or unlikely you are being, being postive is the way because being negative is a terrible crime. And it is worse to be a negative women - a nag, a shrew etc etc.

Recently going through some really, really complex and challenging curcumstances that I could do very little about (having exhauseted all avenues) I was told by a counsellor "well I'm sure if you want it enough then it will all work out". And she really meant it. As if by just wishing I could just make it so. And would be critical if I didn't respond with glee and hope as if the problem lay with me. She was nuts I think.

But I think this is quite a widespread and dangerous attitude more and more nowadays that does not encourage people to be critical in an analytical sense. Don't put a downer on the situation, don't be a black sheep, have some irrational optimism and everything will just be OK. It got us Brexit because no one would tackle the housing crisis and lack of integration in some areas. Everyone can do waht they like and it will all just magically be OK.

I do think it is also so many people being lazy - they can;t be arsed to think about stuff deeply and are prone to being Sheeple. Fashion led. Easy answers.

Irrational optimism/ liberalism puts the margialised on a pedastal. Better than demonising perhaps but equally unscientific. Why can't there be a sensible middle ground?