Gender Self Identification debate continued

[PoochSmooch]

Continuation of the thread from here

Well exactly I think there is consensus here. There was a reason why these separate spaces came into being in the first place. Men have not proved themselves capable of being able to share spaces with some without abusing them.

Women not some

There was a reason why these separate spaces came into being in the first place

Exactly. And I feel that we're now being told that we no longer need those spaces and I strongly object to being railroaded into that without so much as a bye-your-leave.

I'm going to need to see people's workings on that before I agree. And even then, I might not agree, and that should be enough. women saying no should be enough.

And it isn't. Which to me, demonstrates neatly the very reason why we still might need those spaces - because the world is populated by people for whom "no" is not enough.

orlantina

A brief Google gives me the stats collated in 2009. 143 transwomen had genital surgery. The average age was 42 years old.

Many transwomen want facial feminisation surgery and particularly hormones, but not genital surgery.

Who exactly do you think the rape and violent threats are coming from? Why are so many fully intact men identifying as lesbians?

The cotton ceiling wouldn't be a thing if it wasn't for men with penises. The idea that it's transphobic to reject someone with a penis wouldn't be a thing.

Why are these exact same people rejecting penises themselves? On dating sites specifying 'no trans'.

In terms of being attacked in male bathrooms, currently non passing transwomen will indeed choose to use the male bathroom. Many androphyllic transwomen think it's completely wrong to impose yourself on women and make them feel uncomfortable, if you don't pass. Miranda Yardley, a transwoman, has written extensively about it.

As her partner, Helen, also a transwoman says, 'if transwomen want women to stop thinking of them as abusive men, they need to stop acting like it'.

Seriously, just use Google. I get the impression that you have not been exposed to the way transgenderism has taken a turn over the last few years. What about autogynephilia? It's absolutely rife.

That's partly to do with the move for a greater acceptance of transsexuals. Previously you could not get surgery/hormones using AGP as the reason. So people had to pretend not to have it. That's no longer the case. It's far more accepted. Stonewall include all people with AGP as transgender.

It's a very damaging fetish for women. It relies on viewing women as victims, and it sparks profound envy in their biology (see all the YouTube videos of AGP
TW claiming to have periods, going to great lengths to discuss cramps, etc.).

the world is populated by people for whom "no" is not enough.

I do think we need to say a little more than no, as using this argument we wouldn't have progressed around racism or homophobia, but I think it's about the balance of concerns and how much weight is given to women's views. I'm not quite sure what the answer is. Bearing in mind there are more male MPs than female MPs it will be a majority men who make this decision, and I'd imagine a lot of the women MPs will be scared like a lot of us are. It's crap.

*Datun

I agree. I can't help thinking there must be a lot of secret cross dressers who are bankers and property magnets. And political movers and shakers.*

This is the most toxic paranoid rubbish I have read on this site for a long time, as though the trans movement is being secretly bankrolled. The trans movement was cheerfully supported by most liberal and left wing people and groups, they hijacked feminism and LGB movements and everyone was being too 'right-on' to question it. But now it's the bankers to blame. Do fuck off.

I agree, there, clairewilliams999. I just think that it's the thing now to be open minded and unquestioning or else you are bigoted. The end. So thinking beyond the immediate means you have to put your fingers in your ears. It was the same with Cologne and other cities. Sex attacks? By migrant men? No, can't possibly be, because Migrants = Good. All of them. And the refugee children, some of whom clearly were quite old. I saw some posters on here (and elsewhere) saying that people saying they didn't want 30-year-old men in their daughters' classrooms were racist and bigoted, and, I remember one person saying that maybe they felt as if they were 14 years old . Mark my words, there will sooner or later be a movement to legitimise age self-identification...

I'm sorry if this has been linked already, but there is a very well-worded petition available on the change.org website

www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp-a-review-of-how-laws-based-on-gender-identity-conflict-with-laws-based-on-biological-sex

It is a bit old (only 10 months, it was set up in response to the original private members bill) but still highly relevant - and at least it having been up for so long means it's not likely to get pulled. I'll be emailing 38 degrees, my MP (again) and anyone else I can think of as soon as I get the time to be calmly articulate.

orlantina And yet again you mention the 'small' crime survey on transgenders. TIMs are a subset of men. It is glaringly obvious to me that they still commit crimes at the same rate as the general male population.

A look at the links on this thread tells you that there are A LOT of sexually violent TIMs. There are many more links to crimes committed by TIMs on the Gender Critical Reference thread. The government do not collect these stats, hell most are now recorded as being committed by a women. So women record them. Women notice. We see.

Look for Hope @streetvoiceuk on Twitter. He's been using men's toilets for years without incident and advocates that other do the same.

clairewilliams999

Nice.

When I first started to see the writing on the wall, and people making claims, I googled them.

I didn't just swear and deny it.

Women have been trying for the best part of 100 years to have laws created to protect them and stop the disadvantages.

The transgender movement has managed this in less than a decade. If you don't think there is money behind this, you're naive.

Marketing something this big takes time, resources and funding.

Stonewall have completely changed their profile to be overwhelmingly about trans, rather than LGB.

There are far more LGB people there are trans. Stonewall relies on funding. Why do you think less than half percent of the population have managed to change the laws that are going to affect entire rest of the population? You can't do this without funding. Because no one will ever get to hear about it.

Money is needed, and yes, a liberal outlook.

George Soros has been bankrolling trans-initiatives all over America, including door-to-door canvassing, setting up initiatives, and teaching in schools.

Funding places like planned parenthood and ACLU which although for women, now promote trans as those women. Planned Parenthood hosted a workshop about the cotton ceiling. Helping transwomen find sexual partners amongst lesbians (hence 'no penis' being transphobic). Also the group promoting chest feeding, pregnant people and front hole.

ACLU also funded by Soros. Another organisation that supports trans uncritically.

m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/aug/11/george-soros-the-money-behind-the-transgender-move/

I was being somewhat flippant about cross dressing bankers. However, cross dressing is incredibly common. The profile is white, middle-class, middle aged men.

Cross dressing is over represented in both the military and amongst tech jobs.

Profile of parents of trans children has been studied. Especially those who transition very young. The profile is white, rich, middle-class, often with a successful wife previously out-earning her husband.

Causes of gender dysphoria are varied and it's not yet certain whether it is a neurological condition, or a reaction to enforced gender stereotypes. But transsexuals have been around for decades and never made this headway.

AGP is a sexual fetish which does not have to include gender dysphoria, at all.

They are completely different things.

But both trans. Because both of them want to be women.

loops I was in bed when you replied. You say I should ask trans women what they experience - did you miss that I have? My trans friend tells me she 'feels more myself in a dress'. Well that's me fucked then as I feel nothing but awkward in one. It's not an answer.
I think I'm expressing myself badly about gender. I guess I don't mean it doesn't exist, but rather there is no such thing as a fixed female gender. This changes over time and in different societies. It's therefore impossible for anyone to say they are female gender as an absolute - they mean their interests/likes closely match the current gender stereotype. I don't think this is enough to change the whole structure of public services and responses to people's verifiable and constant sex.
Can anyone answer my question about how I (and indeed anybody who is a real person) am any different from someone who identifies as non-binary?

Can anyone answer my question about how I (and indeed anybody who is a real person) am any different from someone who identifies as non-binary?

I'd be interested in this too. Apart from the pronouns. What is the difference?

No one answered my question.

Is there a campaign? Should we start one?
Or are we just going to debate this on MN?

Let's start a campaign. I've written to Jeremy Corbyn today as I think he has previously championed women's rights.

I am writing to you as a champion of women's rights. I think you are strong and principled and must be able to clearly see the dangers of this proposed Gender Recognition Bill. I know that you previously have recognised the dangers that women face in their daily lives in public places. How much more dangerous would our lives become if any man with a fully functioning penis who chooses to identify as a woman to gain access to our changing rooms, toilets, shelters, prisons, hospital wards.

I am not against people who have chosen to have their penises removed having access to these places if they feel it is necessary. I just don't think that any man with an intact penis should be allowed in these places. How are women ever to feel safe again in these vulnerable situations?

It is never going to be the nice men who abuse this legislation is it? It is going to be the rapists, the abusers, the voyeurs. And we all know that these people exist in our society and that they know full well how to take advantage of any loopholes in the law. This would give full bearded men with intact penises who have not taken any hormones the right to have access to any women only spaces just by self declaring that he feels like a woman. How will we ever feel safe again? How will Muslim women in particular be able to take part in public life?

I appeal to you to see the issues that we women are worrying about. We are over 50% of the population. Are we not to be heard?

I'm also writing to my local House of Lords representative. I think we should all write to anyone who has previously championed women's rights until we find someone who is willing to support our cause.

oldtrees

I think we probably have a better chance of action by linking to groups that are already doing stuff around this - if there are any - does anyone know? I am out in the sticks and not connected in anymore.

Good letter busyboys

To reply to loop seven miles upthread, yes I am rather keen on accurate research understatement of the year, so you must know me!!

But there is no way that gov questionnaire was ever going to actually be representative research. I've seen it linked on twitter by anti SGW men (who certainly don't seem to come under either group of radfem or LGBTQIABCD) and where there is no way to prevent people doing it more than once, you don't think anyone who agrees with this proposed change in law would also be filling it in seven times a day?

oldtrees and Summer I have been looking for groups that might have an official campaign and haven't found one yet.
I like your letter too busyboys I'm going to write to my MP.

I found this blog which I though was really interesting.

Not sure where to post it so going to leave it here and please re post anywhere you think it would help.

4thwavenow.com/2016/05/03/gender-critical-dad-is-fed-up-with-the-bucketloads-of-doublespeak/amp/

There's an article (bit of a stretch of the word!), on UniLAD I noticed today about an "artist" free bleeding in a park for transrights. Its all a bit gross tbh, but I was heartened by the comments people had left.

A Facebook group has been set up by a mumsnetter on the back of this news. Thread link below.

It's been closed to protect the members, but you can request to join.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2988720-Facebook-group?msgid=70705293#70705293

This deluded individual thinks she's a cat. So presumably we should pay for her to have whiskers implanted, teeth sharpened and allow her to sleep all day in the sun?

I'm all for it. Unlike declaring males to be female and allowing them in women's spaces, this person at least will do no harm. if we support the transnonsense, let's all support this woman, first.

Oh, and regarding research, the translobby has actually silenced someone who wanted to do research about detransitioners at an university. Don't have the link here, but I am sure someone has.

The translobby as such is not terribly keen on accurate research.

So feeling safe and away from men in pool changing rooms matters to me very much indeed. And this was a private house but Loop would like all changing rooms to be like that so that trans women can feel comfortable. What about me feeling comfortable? Don't I count? Sorry. Will step away. I have not thought about that man for a very long time.

You do count. To feminists, you count.

I noticed Loop has remained silent so far ... dare I hope they have suddenly grown something like a conscience or discovered a shred of compassion?

Probably not, though.

Ok, but statistically both women and children are more likely to be assaulted or raped or abused by someone they already know. Attacks by strangers make up only about 10% of all incidents (rapecrisis UK) and some of those will be carried out by the same individual. So, yes, men are still offending more, but it's more much more likely to be a man you know than a random trans woman in a bathroom.

This is how the situation stands at the moment, with sex segregated spaces and women & girls able to challenge the presence of male-bodied people in those spaces. We have no idea what will happenwhen those protections are removed, but early signs from the US & Canada, where similar laws have been implemented, are not good.

Loop - I also think your assertion that women or girls can just challenge male bodied exhibitionists in their changing rooms is disingenuous. Are you really asserting that a 13 year old girl should challenge a much larger, physically more imposing (whether real or pretend/opportunist) MTT? Really? Everything about your post a couple of pages ago is so disingenuous, I have to question your motives for posting so "naively" on this thread.

Sorry, it's about coordinating strategies to make our voices heard.

I have to say also that when I have entered the public debates about this the trans women have been absolutely vile to me. No actual debate has been allowed. Just lots of personal attacks and aggression, really horrible language, really as though they hate women. And these are the people who want access to women's safe spaces? I have felt really violated just by some of the words they have said to me whereas I have not in any way personally attacked them. In fact I just haven't even replied to any of their nasty comments just kept on with the facts and my thoughts on the situation in a calm way. To show up I guess how vitriolic they are by contrast.