AIBU to 'veto' this holiday?

[angstybaby]

DH loves his holidays. he's having one in september on his own and we're all going off for 6 weeks in next summer. Neither will be cheap. Now he wants another 2 weeks at xmas.

This would be fine if we could afford it. his idea of being able to afford something is 'i can get credit to pay for it'. mine is 'do you have the money in your current account?'. we have separate accounts and split the bills between us though in a very haphazard way and sometimes, he'll be overdrawn at the end of the month.

he thinks i'm being a kill joy and that it is unreasonable that i essentially get to veto his choices because i hold the negative position. last night we had a row and he walked off, saying he was going to book the holiday. FYI we both work FT and I earn 80% of what he does so holidays are paid for by both of us.

how on earth can i get us on the same page financially? or should i just give up and opt for completely separate finances (which I know would mean that he takes the kids on holiday without me. being separated from them - they're all under 7 - would be heartbreaking for me)? we've always seen our finances as shared but we have such differing ideas. i worry that if we split our finances, he'll spend as much as he does now and i'll still have to bail him out because we share a mortgage, etc.

help!

This isn't just about a holiday, it's about how you make decisions jointly and how you manage your finances. I think YANBU and he is acting a bit like a spoilt child. He's had 2 holidays this year - one on his own and he wants another.

Holidays are never worth getting in debt for - and if you do, will he spend next year paying off the debt, or will he want more holidays so it just accumulates?

Have you ever actually sat down together and done a budget?

We are comfortable financially. DH isn't a spendthrift but he does like to spend out for big ticket items like a house. And because we earn decent money, we've never had to budget on a day-to-day basis.

He was mooting the idea of moving to a bigger house and he kept suggesting places I considered to be too expensive. Eventually we sat down and talked through our income and our expenditures and he saw that he was over-budget when doing a monthly calculation (he was calculating yearly which included his bonus - except the amount of his bonus isn't garanteed).

It's boring doing budgets, but it's necessary. And by writing it all down it's hard to argue with.

Maybe you should also stop splitting things in a haphazard way and each contribute a fixed amount to a joint account every month, from which all family expenses can be paid.

thanks guys.

i would love to sit down and work out a budget (ok, well, maybe not 'love') but he won't. he won't tell me how much debt he's in and only told me last year how much he earned. the main problem is that he'll take this all VERY personally, like i don't trust him or that i want to ruin all his fun. then he'll get stroppy and say that he'll just spend 'his' money on the holiday.

maybe the problem is 'how to deal with a spoilt child'?! i feel like i'm talking to a brick wall.

You are married and he won't tell you how much debt he's got you into?

Well he's right to take that personally. That is very fucking awfully personally bad. You should be making it personal. It is absolutely not on.

You don't have to sit together to make a budget. Tell him to make a budget to show you that it's affordable and you'll reconsider. Otherwise you have to explode in fury at him.

You should not trust him. He is hiding debt from you. You should tell him that you don't trust him because he is hiding debt from you. If he's hurt he will have to get over it.

It's not your job to protect him from feeling bad when he should feel bad because he has behaved badly.

My husband and I have separate bank accounts and credit cards. We have one joint account where we put in money for food. When our baby is born, we will put in money for the baby, including her child benefit. I transfer money to him for the mortgage, its in his name as I'm a foreigner, it'd increase our interest rate to put me on the loan. Our utilities are in his name for the same reason. I earn less than him, but even he doesn't know how much I exactly earn, and I'm not 100% sure how much he earns.

If my hubby wants a holiday together, we discuss how we will both afford it. He's going on to the US for my brothers wedding. I cannot go as I'll be 34 weeks and wont get clearance to fly. I told him to go because its important someone represents our little family at the wedding. He's paying for it out of his own wage, and will put his spending on his own credit card to pay it off. I TRUST him to pay his debts, I've never had a problem with him not paying.

He doesn't know exactly what I owe on my credit cards, just that I'm paying them. He doesn't even know how much my cell phone bill is. As I'm about to be on maternity leave, we will probably naturally sit down and discuss that he'll need to take care of the mortgage on his own for a couple months and that I may need some help paying my cell phone bill.

If he's acting like a spoilt child, then propose a joint account, like a PP said, without any overdraft facilities for joint bills, food, and expenses for the kids. If he's willing to go into massive amounts of debt for his holiday, let him, knowing that you wont have you name on that credit card and that its his responsibility. Don't bail him out if he can't pay his bills because he's run up debt on unnecessary holidays. Tell him what you think, and what you think the consequences will be.

How come he gets to take more holidays than you? Is he this selfish in other ways? For instance, does he do his share of domestic work?
He doesn't seem to understand that he is not the only person who matters, and that he can't just run up debts that will affect you all.

If you ever split up wouldn't the debts become half yours in the same way as the marital assets would be split between you?

The trouble is he's a grown adult and you can't stop him from doing what he wants. You can talk reasonably, you can shout, you can stamp your feet, but you can't make him do/or not do anything.

But a reasonable person in a relationship listens to their partner and makes the big decisions together, whether its about finances or how to spend your annual leave

One thing that really struck me is you said he would go on holiday at Christmas with your kids and leave you behind - that's just cruel

Runrabbit: fair point. the debt that he's cagey about pre-dates our relationship so should, in theory, be completely separated off from 'our' finances (and was why i wasn't that bothered about it: he was paying it off, it was his past). but i'm beginning to realise that having clear dividing lines between different areas of your finances is tricky.

i think a joint account for bills etc and another one for holidays might be a good idea. though as he pointed out yesterday, he could have the money to pay for the holiday in his current account by today, if need be (by borrowing it, moving credit cards around). i point out that it would still be borrowed but then he says, but we've got a mortgage so you're clearly happy to have some debt...

maybe it's just time for unpleasant conversations...ugh. i feel embarrassed about being such a wimp but i'm really dreading it

I'm bemused that anyone could marry and procreate with someone without knowing something as basic as what they earn. Or their level of debt!
You have much bigger problems than this holiday idea.

Different attitudes towards money often causes conflict. Setting up a bank account for "fun" stuff like holidays might be a good idea, so you can both see exactly how much is available

i think a joint account for bills etc and another one for holidays might be a good idea

This is an excellent idea. He contributes his agreed share to these no matter what and you each get equal spending money left over.

His spends has to cover repayment of any debts he's run up by himself and any of his own spending including holidays he claims he can afford.

And is he really so dim that he can't see the difference between borrowing to buy a secure and hopefully appreciating asset that also provides you with somewhere to live and a holiday which, while lovely costs a lot of money and is over in a matter of days or a couple of weeks at most. When you can live in or sell memories, his argument will be valid.

Reframe it. You're not vetoing, you plural are going to make a decision together, because neither parent gets to make unilateral decisions where children are involved. And a joint decision from 2 grown adults will require you to listen to each other and compromise.

Rightly or wrongly there may be some compromise that rails against all your instincts, eg could you live with him borrowing up to £1k per holiday, and not booking anything else til it's paid back? Not how I'd choose to do it either but if, in return, you get concessions that put your family on a more secure footing then maybe that's worth it. More structure so you don't end up spending all your money on food and electric, because he's spunked all his on a holiday, is surely a reasonable request that any reasonable partner should heed.

He may be acting like a spoiled child because he is embarrassed at how much he owes - attack is the best form of defence etc.

I would be extremely worried about what he is trying to hide if he won't reveal the exact level of debt with you.
Me and DH have separate account because we never bothered getting s joint one but I know what's in his and he knows what's in mine. I can't imagine a situation where either of us would refuse to tell the other about our finances.
Anyway imo he is being incredibly childish and selfish. If he gets a debt it is your debt as much as his debt so you get to veto if you think it's unaffordable.
Mortgages are still debt but I'm assuming yours is at a level you can afford to pay back rather than a ridiculous one that you can't afford so it doesn't support his argument.

he gets an extra holiday because he's tagging it onto a work trip, he would like us all to go too (but it's not practical) and it gives me the chance to have my parents come and visit stress-free. it works for me too.

he's selfish in the sense that he's used to being on his own and not having to share decisions. he's a bit spoilt too. he's not selfish in that he does 40% of the childcare (we both work FT) and plenty of domestic labour (50%, i'd say). he would also point out that when i don't want to go on a holiday, we don't go, so i get the 'veto', thereby putting my interests before his. he'd say i'm being selfish. i'd would probably respond that i often do say yes to things i'd normally say no to, in order to compromise.

he thinks that i'm a bit neurotic where money is concerned (probably) and that it skews my judgment. i would say he's a spendthrift and that skews his. we differ over how urgent it is to clear our (non-mortgage) debt (generally at around 8% APR) but i think the point is to reduce the debt, not just improve the APR.

DingDongDenny - you're right (esp about taking the kids away without me). how do i get him to be reasonable?

The problem is, his debt DOES impact you. If you have a joint mortgage, your credit rating will be impacted by his. If he died, assuming you're his named beneficiary, those debts become yours. It's absolutely shocking that he's not transparent about these things with you.

Financial incompatibility causes many break ups. I don't hold out much hope for your marriage, unless he stops behaving like a child and starts taking responsibility like an adult.

I normally subscribe to the "one pot" method, where both of your money is combined and it's all family money, with an equal allowance each for personal spends.

But in this case, I think you should have a joint account for bills and children's expenses. You each put a percentage amount in to cover these. So if you only earn 80% of his wage, you put in less to reflect that.
Then you'll each be left with an amount for personal spends, and if he spends all his before the month is out, you don't bail him out.

But if he won't even discuss it with you, I think you should re-evaluate your relationship, because it will only get worse.

OK, so full and frank financial disclosure is the way to go.

except that i have 2 bank accounts in the kids' names which he knows nothing about. he'd say it's bonkers to have money put aside when we could use it to reduce our debt (it's about £300 combined, so not that much: i pay in £15 to each, each month). i like the idea of a safety net (if need be) and some university fund for the kids.

Do I tell DH about them?

He has given you no reason to trust him and every reason to be suspicious.
I think you should be specific about what you need. "I would love to go on this holiday but I don't believe we can afford it. I would love to be wrong about that. Trust is earned. If you want me to trust you, you need to trust me with some financial disclosure. Show me that we can afford it and I will get right on board."
Good luck op. I think this is worth digging you heels in over. The financial prospects for the UK are uncertain and history proves that, in bumpy times, those who have a lot of credit can quickly find that their situation changes overnight, without warning. Interest rate rises are coming in the next few years. This is not a good time to take on extra debt unless essential.

Why would you get married to and have kids with someone who won't be honest and trust you with his financial situation. If he is in debt it is now yours too!

Sort it now or it will only get worse as the kids get older(and more expensive!)

Ask him what would happen if he died? How would you get by? Would you and the kids lose your house? You are in quite a vulnerable position, he could be tens of thousands in the red.

I wish I could tell you how to make someone be reasonable. He will etither listen or not

Gosh. This issue just gets thornier. You are fundamentally financially incompatible. Have you considered going to see a financial advisor together to iron out some of these issues? Perhaps he would be more open to taking advice from a professional.

Personally this would all drive me bananas, I couldn't possibly be married to someone so financially careless. I really feel for you, OP.

If you are in a position where £300 is a large amount then you are almost definitely not in a position for a large family 2 week holiday!

£300 is pretty negligible if you are in debt, i would save for the kids or for when the bailiffs turn up.

if he died, we'd be ok because i'd see the house and down-size.

if we divorced, however, i'd be in trouble because our finances are so intertwined and i have taken on debt to help re-pay his (i took out a loan (at 7%) to clear a credit card he had at 20%+). i'm making those repayments....

what do i need to do to future proof myself for a possible divorce? i've cleared most of my credit card debt and have a little money put aside. I guess, keep clearing MY debt and making sure that his debt goes back to him

I couldn't live like this, it would stress me out too much. I would need to know just what level of debt he was accumulating.