AIBU to 'veto' this holiday?

[angstybaby]

DH loves his holidays. he's having one in september on his own and we're all going off for 6 weeks in next summer. Neither will be cheap. Now he wants another 2 weeks at xmas.

This would be fine if we could afford it. his idea of being able to afford something is 'i can get credit to pay for it'. mine is 'do you have the money in your current account?'. we have separate accounts and split the bills between us though in a very haphazard way and sometimes, he'll be overdrawn at the end of the month.

he thinks i'm being a kill joy and that it is unreasonable that i essentially get to veto his choices because i hold the negative position. last night we had a row and he walked off, saying he was going to book the holiday. FYI we both work FT and I earn 80% of what he does so holidays are paid for by both of us.

how on earth can i get us on the same page financially? or should i just give up and opt for completely separate finances (which I know would mean that he takes the kids on holiday without me. being separated from them - they're all under 7 - would be heartbreaking for me)? we've always seen our finances as shared but we have such differing ideas. i worry that if we split our finances, he'll spend as much as he does now and i'll still have to bail him out because we share a mortgage, etc.

help!

20K is pretty huge - thats going to have some negative impact on his credit rating, and if there is anything struggling in joint names, on yours too!

Have you had a look at Noddle (free credit rating check) I set both mine and DH's up, give it a try, you may know the info you need for it (i think you do need one credit or debit card number for the initial search)

That will show you exactly what debt is against him!!

As for repaying the debt - if you have sufficient equity, maybe a remortgage to cover it?
Alternatively, try the charity Stepchange - It will batter the credit rating, but will get rid of cards, make it very very difficult to get future lending for a few years and might be the kick up the butt that he needs to get back in the black.

Think VERY VERY carefully before remortgaging (and preferably don't do it).

If you pay the credit cards off with a remortgage, he sounds like the type who will run them up again, and in a few years time, he will have £20k of credit card debt and a bigger mortgage that will cost more to pay off because 3% interest for 20 years probably costs more to pay off than 20% interest for 2 years (or something - CBA to work the numbers out but it probably does).

How much are the debt repayments each month? It must be a few hundred and impacting on his disposable income?

Your OH behaves like many people with debts they have always managed to pay and have never experienced an unplanned event that means that suddenly, they are faced with the horror of not being able to repay the debts, losing their home as a result, not being able to get an mortgage etc....

My Ex was like that. We both had good jobs and because he saw it as a high achievement, he believed it gave him the right to buy whatever he wanted. Debts to him was only a cash flow issue.... until he was made redundant. He managed to get another job quickly and spent all the redundancy money... but hadn't banked on being made redundant again only a a year afterwards as the company folded.

After that, he really struggled to get another decently paid job, he got behind on his debt, the pressure affected our relationship (and the secrets about how bad his debt was) and we separated. I managed ok, but he didn't.

He learned his lesson then, but he had lost a lot in the way. Your OH is naive if he thinks that his/your financial position is safe forever.

No no no don't take out any more debt in your name to clear his debt.

A very dear friend did that. And when they broke up due to his financial incontinence guess who was stuck with the debt. She was.

He should feel the pain of not getting credit because he's already got too much. He should feel the pain of the high interest rate and thus cut his discretionary spending to pay it off.

You've stopped him from feeling the crunch. You've taken the debt and left him free to take out more while feeling that it's fine.

Whatever he can spend on the holiday should come off his debt in your name immediately. Why would either of you consider doing anything else?

What kind of mortgage have you got, OP? I am concerned that you may have an interest only deal and may, therefore, have even more issues to face.

You said it "makes sense" for you to be the one applying for things - who suggested this?

How much of his debt is now in your name alone?

If he's hinting at 20k then, imo, he's testing the waters to see how you react therefore I'd assume it's considerably higher than 20k.

OP, I consolidated my Ex-H's debts when we were married as it made sense at the time and I saw it as 'our money'. We split up and it was suddenly 'my' debt and 'my' problem.

I finished paying off the last of the £30k I borrowed willingly to pay his debts this year. We separated 11 years ago.

You took out a loan to pay HIS debts off?!
Without full disclosure?

He's taking you for a mug OP - and a cash cow.
He'd never be able to afford his lifestyle if he lived on his own.

I'd only have a joint account for FAMILY holidays - not personal ones.
How is it fair that he gets so much more child-free time and personal holidays than you?
Especially when it's YOU that is funding them and picking up his slack in his absence?

i suggest you apply for your Experian credit file and check what debt is in your name which you are liable for, and what debt is registered against your address.
Check whether a charge has been put on your home - as that means any equity will go to debtors first.
What is left will probably be split 50/50 to begin with if you split so you probably won't benefit from his death/divorce as much as you think you will.

why on earth have you not gone batshit on him for his deceptions?

If you have to get a loan for a holiday then you can't afford a holiday.
Perhaps he should look at making savings else where so that he can save for one.

Holidays are not a necessity they are a luxury, which by the sounds of it he can't afford.

Fuuuuck, OP. When I read the "hinted at £20K I thought uh huh, and everyone underestimates... I'm with the PPs who say I suspect you're in for a shock and it's £25-30K...

Also, your OP reads as if you both are high earners = big spenders. But actually as the thread goes on it seems more precarious. £100K equity is not lots, for instance. If you split, what could you buy property-wise on £50K MINUS the debts in your name, and your salary as sole mortgage? That's the reality ... not pretty.

So, to summarise:

You have approx £100K equity in house. (Repayment mortgage or interest only? Size of mortgage relative to equity? Be aware that house prices are stagnating in places.)

You owe £X amount personally (made up of a loan you repay yourself for your feckless DH)

He owes £20K+ personally.

You have no idea of full finances/budget for each other. He'd consider £300 of DCs savings worth "spending" on debt whilst still racking up more debt.

He is evasive and argumentative if he doesn't get his own way.

You have 2+ children together.

@CouldntMakeThisShitUp - I would do the Experian check (try clearscore and noddle which are both free) and check your credit file.

It won't show you what's registered against your property, unsecured credit is against a person not property. It will show associations but not what they have. You'd need to log in as your husband and tbh I think it would probably be a good idea if he won't disclose to you.

I may have misunderstood this, but it seems you are paying off your DPs debts, even though he earns more than you? Why are you doing this? In any event, if you are still clearing off this debt, I roulette absolutely insist you don't consider taking on any further debt until this is cleared.

What concerns me even more is the lack of transparency on his part - you have been married all these years with DC and you still don't know how much he owes. The fact that he still hasn't told you the full picture speaks volumes.

I hope you manage to speak to him properly about this, along the lines you have set out. But I would say be prepared for some unpleasantness....

Update:

• holiday is off the table
• FYI 6 week holiday next year is being paid for by someone else (don't ask....I can't really give details on MN)
• I've not raised the joint accounts yet. That one is going to blow up so I'm ...er...pacing myself. and him.
• I've undertaken some financial due diligence and now have a figure for what my pension will be (at 65, same salary as now though in reality it will increase fairly substantially). I also have full list of what is owed, interest rates, dates of completion etc for both of us. So I know precisely where we stand which is that we could be debt-free (excepting the mortgage) in about 9 years (same lifestyle being maintained). Whether we will is another matter...

and the bit you all want to know...he owes 22k.

So I feel better in that I know where we stand but not exactly over the moon at where that is (or, indeed, our differing financial attitudes). Our financial position is slightly odd in that we had years of very poorly paid positions while training but both now have well-paid, secure jobs. We're living with the legacy of all the years spent training.

and i have one last question! Should i opt to put 1% of my salary into an investment builder with my private pension provider? My employer would match my contribution and it would cost me £300 a year but the payment in would be £760. Is this wise or am I in danger of losing my money?

I know some will think that it would be more sensible to spend that £25 a month on paying off debt but as many of you have noted, DH may well run up more debt that I then have to pay off. This would therefore be a way of protecting myself and my future. Thoughts?

I'm hoping a more knowledgeable poster than me comes along, but honestly OP? I think you need to do anything you can (and I don't know what you can do, I'm sorry, that's where the knowledgeable poster comes in) to separate your finances from your H. Even if you clear all the debts, he's just going to run up more. You do know that right?
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, but if there's a way, take it. Grab it with both hands, and don't be drawn into clearing any more of HIS debts.
I'm horrified at how he's behaved so far - he needs to see the nasty side of it as pp says - I don't wish hard times on you, but how will he ever learn if you always bail him out?

NCendoflifedilemma - yes, it's fair summary.

I am more cautious though as you may have noticed, I have a tendency to put my head in the sand where money is concerned. Divorce would be the worst outcome, financially. but if i had 50k from the sale of the house i wouldn't have to pay off my debts there and then. i could use the money as a deposit and get a mortgage then slowly spend my life living off value baked beans until i brought the debt down. but i wouldn't be homeless (which was the worry when i was a kid so that's my measure of 'success')

why am I paying off his debt? good question. i guess because i thought we became a joint financial unit when we got married (i know, i know) and his debt was at a high int rate whereas i had an unblemished credit history so could get a better rate.

we never discussed money or attitudes to it when we got together. we thoroughly discussed kids and attitudes towards raising them, political affiliations, philosophical positions, positions on infidelity, drinking, porn, holidays, weddings, engagement rings and probably sport for godssake. but not money. maybe it's the last taboo (did you see ormerod in the guardian today?)

and yes, i am slowly separating our finances and also getting him to take back some of his debt. i've learned a lot from everybody's reactions on here...

Good update, OP. Glad the holiday is off the table, and you have the full picture.

I understand the need to take it slowly where attitude changes are concerned. My DH once might have thought like your DH. We paid off a lot of debt in our 20s spent on frivolous stuff.

If I were you, I'd be really depressed at the idea of 9 years (NINE YEARS!) paying off debt. How old will your DC be then? How old will you be?

Every year you spend paying off that debt is a year you are not accruing savings. You have stolen from your future selves. Yes, low paid training jobs do suck somewhat, but you shouldn't be £22K in hock and the best part of a decade away from being debt-free.

Yes you should pay into the pension. Always always take the employer matching payments. You are already nine years off being debt free and being able to accrue wealth and savings. Don't squander this chance to pay into your pension pot. Every year when you are young that you can make a small contribution is worth about 2 years or more when you're older. The money in there the longest has the best chance of growth. Please pay into the pension.

Divorce would be the worst outcome, financially. but if i had 50k from the sale of the house i wouldn't have to pay off my debts there and then. i could use the money as a deposit and get a mortgage then slowly spend my life living off value baked beans until i brought the debt down

But after you had paid solicitors, and the bank had reduced the amount it was willing to lend you because of the debt you need to service, and the childcare you'll have to pay as a single parent...

You need your DH on board. Attitude change will come, if you can stick at it, and if he is not a massive manchild with an entitled outlook. Have a look at YNAB (You Need A Budget) and read through inspirational stories on there. Have a look at moneysavingexpert debt boards. Get serious about clearing it.

My last relationship broke up (partly) because of different attitudes to money. I'm not someone who naturally saves and am not averse to using credit cards from time to time. However, having said that, the fact that it's going to take you NINE YEARS to be free from debt (excluding the mortgage) is something I'd be very uncomfortable with, particularly if your debt is accruing interest.

Can you not seek to agree a strategy to eliminate the debt completely? At least get it transferred onto 0% cards (I've never paid interest on credit card debt, but then mine has never been more than about £3k).

One thing I've found very helpful in trying to have a more sensible approach to money is YNAB (You Need A Budget) - it's a brilliant piece of software and has revolutionised by spending habits. If your husband likes apps at all, this might be something he could download.

My last relationship broke up (partly) because of different attitudes to money. I'm not someone who naturally saves and am not averse to using credit cards from time to time. However, having said that, the fact that it's going to take you NINE YEARS to be free from debt (excluding the mortgage) is something I'd be very uncomfortable with, particularly if your debt is accruing interest.

Can you not seek to agree a strategy to eliminate the debt completely? At least get it transferred onto 0% cards (I've never paid interest on credit card debt, but then mine has never been more than about £3k).

One thing I've found very helpful in trying to have a more sensible approach to money is YNAB (You Need A Budget) - it's a brilliant piece of software and has revolutionised by spending habits. If your husband likes apps at all, this might be something he could download.

I feel for you OP because I've been in your shoes. I was raised to be incredibly good with money. I know how to live really well within a fraction of my means, I'm utterly debt averse and I'm pretty clued up about investments. I've only ever once in my life taken out a debt - a joint mortgage and with some careful investments I had it cleared at 35. My ex-husband is another matter. He was constantly running up secret debts. I'd find out about them, budget to clear them, live on pennies myself in order to get his debt paid off while he'd keep spending as usual. And no sooner would we be free and clear when a letter would arrive or even, once, a bailiff showing another load of secret debt he'd run up while I was clearing the last one.

Since we've split up I've been living on a tiny income that is literally 84% less than his while I have all the costs of raising DS as he's not currently paying any maintenance. Yet I save roughly half of my money every month and he is in massive amounts of debt. He has over-drawn overdrafts, loans, borrows money from his family members, pays annual fees on instalment, he earns a fortune but every paycheque is already spent before he earns it. And when I used to question his spending I'd be met with whining about how he worked his arse off so deserved to treat himself and how he supported me because he earned more (though the budgets clearly showed the opposite because we were contributing equally to bills and he was spending all his disposable income and most of mine). Even now he actually has the cheek to ask me for loans because otherwise he won't be able to afford petrol to visit DS. (He only has supervised visitation).

Financial incompatibility is a killer in a relationship. It's not why we split up but OMG the absolute freedom and relief of actually knowing every single day what money I have, how much I have, knowing that if I economise I will get to enjoy the results. Of not having to economise in any way that matters (ie, I know DS will not only be well fed and clothed but will have wow moments on his birthday and Christmas morning, that I can eventually realise his dreams of visiting Legoland/Disneyland/etc). I make small sacrifices all the time but they rarely feel like sacrifices because the payoff is practically guaranteed. When I was with my ex making sacrifices felt devastating because they were like trying to hold back the ocean.

Wow. Yanbu. I couldn't live with a husband like that. Paying off debt comes first, and in our house holidays are paid for when we have actual savings.
Luckily I think you've had a wake up call and seek to be on the ball. You definitely need to protect yourself and have a very frank discussion with your frankly immature dh. I also think that being on the same financial page is critically to a successful relationship sadly. Hope you work it out.

Definite YES to the matched pension contribution OP. Most people are not saving enough for their retirement. If you're worried about 'losing your money' you can choose for it to be invested in low risk assets.

Money is one of the big sources of conflict in a relationship so you're not alone. You could even think about sitting down for a session with a third person (e.g. a financial advisor or a life coach) to discuss your concerns and your approach to money as a couple.

We do all the matched pension we can because it is a good long term saving - but look at somewhere like Money Expert for knowledgable advice.
(And don't forget if you divorce - if he doesn't have 50% of the child care then you are likely to get more than 50% of joint assets).

Having been married to someone like your DH, I'd be very cautious.

Leopards don't change their spots & lying about finances is up there with an affair in my book. Borrowing money to go on holiday is utter madness

hey everyone. thanks for the YNAB recommendation. i will give it a go and he does love apps so maybe he'll try it too.

i've gone for the matched contribution and when i told DH about it he seems to be impressed by my financial prowess (!) which made me realise that if i stand up for myself more, and make him realise that i can be as expert as him about money (stop laughing - i mean in his opinion), then he will listen to me more and compromise more. it's a matter of taking up more space, i guess.

9 years to pay off the debt as depressing? it's all relative - i was expecting to never be debt-free! right now, i'll take 9 years