To wonder why on Mumsnet there is a smacking minority and in NZ 85% of people seem to want to do it?

[twentypence]

Lies, damn lies and statistics I know. But apparently NZ's new "anti smacking" law is opposed by 85% of New Zealanders.

Now I haven't looked into the proposed law carefully at all - partly because to actually find a fact amongst all the political posturing and soundbites largely because as I don't smack and never will it doesn't matter to me personally whether it becomes illegal or not.

But 85% just seems so high...

No, I don't tar all Christians with the same brush. I know some very nice Christians who wouldn't harm a hair on any child's head and are gentle and respectful people. In fact I would say most Christians are non-violent and peaceful people IME.

I was referring to a particular branch of blunt-instrument fundamentalist Biblical-parenting hardliners whose views especially in some parts of the US (but not only there) are worryingly influential and frankly barbaric. I named a few such people and can easily provide plenty of material to support my naming them.

These perverts have no more to do with the core principles of Christianity than the Spanish Inquisition or the IRA. This isn't about dissing Christians.

Incidentally, CATastrophe, I acquired much of my understanding of these fundamentalists from reading books - actual hard copy books, with paper and everything - not from the internet. MN is pretty much my only involvement with the internet, although I know how to use a search engine if I need to illustrate a point quickly.

Another charming little tip from the great James Dobson. Comes in really handy when you're out somewhere and can't administer a full-blown whupping.

James Dobson: "Minor pain can...provide excellent motivation for the child... There is a muscle, lying snugly against the base of the neck... When firmly squeezed, it sends little messengers to the brain saying, 'This hurts; avoid recurrence at all costs'."

Sadistic freak.

if I had time - which I don't unfortunately - I would go back to his website and find some other quotes of his which are disctincly NOT barbaric sounding..........it's amazing what one can do with abstract quotes isn't it (just think of the "famous" one on the SWMNBN thread!)

But why would you bother FA - once you've made those kind of statements who would be interested in the fact that he also says some quite normal sounding stuff?

It's a bit like saying x murdered his wife but when he was in prison he wrote some wonderful love poems!

Soapbox - it's like the famous "wives submit to your husbands" which is often quoted without the verses before and after it.........

Taken on it's own yes it can sound pretty horrendous - taken in context it makes a lot more sense and you realise the woman gets the easy job.

I don't see whats wrong with saying that a smack should hurt the child - there's no pointing in tickling them if your going to use smacking as a discipline. Just because something hurts doesn't mean that you're beating the living daylights out of them - it just means you're making a point to them. IMO.

anyhow - I have a very large amount of shopping sat on my kitchen floor - I've only just put the dinner in the oven and I've got a service to play for at church in less than 1hrs time .

So I need to get on.....think of me playing with a bad back please .

I'd like to see you put the three quotes I've provided into any light that did't make him appear a cruel abusive man.

And while I revile and abhor your admission that smacking a child is intended to hurt, FA, thank God for your honesty. I'm sick to the back teeth with hearing about "taps" and "light smacks". It's hitting - it's violent.

Sadly it's the fundamentalist churches (and bits of other religions) which are growing, aren't they, in the UK at the expense of the C of E and Catholics etc.

I think the C of E was issuing concerns about wifely submission and how that can lead to abuse in a marriage meted out in the name of God.

I think you'll find that most forms of child discipline are "abusive" in one shape or form - ie if you did then to an adult that you were supposed to be looking after you would be fired and probably reported to POVA........

I don't like this attitude that physical abuse is more damaging than emotional abuse non-sense - at the end of the day if something is classed as abuse then it's abuse.

I know of many people who've suffered more long term effects from emotional abuse than from physical abuse.

So if you're going to start calling people who use smacking as a form of discipline (and I personally don't know of anyone that uses it as their only form) abusers then I'd be very quick to say that the majority of parents (except for those who have br*ts as children - ie they don't bother with discipline at all) are child abusers.

Xenia - I find it quite sad that you see non CoE or Catholic churches as being fundamentalist........

I don't think Xenia said that, FA. What she said was that the kind of ministries we are describing as fundamentalist are growing massively compared to Catholic and CofE. That doesn't actually imply that ALL non-Catholic/non-CofE churches are fundamentalist

IME though it is the loony evangelica/Vineyard/charismatic Toronto-Blessing style churches which are booming, especially among young people. It worries me enormously for a number of reasons.

at James Dobson - whoever he is!!

Greenshoots do you actually have his books?

My two DD's were playing up this evening and I told them that they could either have a smack or no chocolate (I'd promised chocolate earlier). They were unanimous in wanting a smack. Even when I told them it would be really really hard!!

(I didn't by the way)

I HAD one of his books. I was given it. I burnt it. But I read it first. And in conenction with various studies I have read quite a bit of material along those lines (try Michael Pearl, he's really barking)

I always think it's a good idea to know the enemy

people are strange.

fa, definitely not. Didn't mean to suggest that at all. Methodist, non conformist, quaker - fine. My local Brethern Church group - little girls in beadscarves looking like something out of Little House on the Prairie, all white too, long hair down to their bottoms... gorgeous but I think they are a bit too literalist for me in terms of girls being brought up so they don't really have an informed choice about early marriage and submission to husbands.

but some Methodists - and many Catholic and CoE churches for that matter believe the "rod" is the best form of discipline for a child.

While many of the evangelical churches (which I've no idea why people are so scared of them LOL) don't preach that at all.

I wouldn't say I was scared of them personally. I'm not scared of other people these days really. I worry about the influence they represent in society though, definitely. And I'm only speaking as someone who was quite heavily involved with charismatic christianity for a number of years and have maintained an interest in that sort of ministry. There are certain practices and aspects which worry me a great deal, yes, but not in terms of peronal fear IYKWIM. I got rid of them once - and they were VERY insistent and pushy to the point of harassment. I mean mainly, but not exclusively, Vineyard people.

I take the point about the Catholic Church not having the ebst track record in the world when it comes to brutal child discipline though FA. Although there is a pleasing move within the Catholic church in recent times towards a more gentle and positive approach to child-rearing.

What do you mean by "many Catholic churches"?

Sorry - posted too soon.

Do you mean individual institutions? Schools for example?

I don't think you'd find a Catholic church/school/priest openly advocating use of the "rod" or any other beating implement these days tbh.

Well, no.

That's why I was wondering.

There aren't really Catholic churches with their own, what would you call it, ethos? Just "the Church". And I have certainly never heard corporal punishment being advocated.

Mot now and not in the 1960s post Vatican II guitar playing Montessori trained etc nuns at my first school.

..but it was bb, and everyone did it, not just Catholic schools but every school in the land right from Tom Brown's schoolboy days to about the 1970 ish.

I want to know if any Christian mumsnetters accept their husband's right physically to chastise them on biblical grounds.