To wonder why on Mumsnet there is a smacking minority and in NZ 85% of people seem to want to do it?

[twentypence]

Lies, damn lies and statistics I know. But apparently NZ's new "anti smacking" law is opposed by 85% of New Zealanders.

Now I haven't looked into the proposed law carefully at all - partly because to actually find a fact amongst all the political posturing and soundbites largely because as I don't smack and never will it doesn't matter to me personally whether it becomes illegal or not.

But 85% just seems so high...

Wow, this thread is the most sane and sensible smacking thread I've ever read on Mumsnet - didn't know it was possible!

I agree about those who don't see eye to eye with the very vocal (and, dare I say it, agressive) majority not bothering to post. There are many issues I never post about.

I agree that smacking is not a thoughtful or ideal discipline technique. Also agree that a one off or occasional smack is not criminal, and to make it so is to scapegoat good parents who make mistakes, rather than help them.

Greeny, in all honesty, I think you are FAR too hard on yourself.

and when I say 'them', I mean 'us'.

Xenia, I don't think anyone is saying that smacking is OK because it's not as bad as other things parents might do ie I don't believe your analogy applies here.

Rather, it's that NZ has a finite amount of public money to spend on improving children's lives, and to me anyway, it makes little sense to spend that on stopping people smacking their children instead of stopping people murdering their children.

Actually, I think that any intervention which consists of punishing troubled families is doomed to fail anyway.

my mother and father both smacked me (all of us actually)

my mother used to lose her temper and come at us like a whirlwind .. once I fell backwards because I was backing away and knocked myself out for a short time

my father used to make us hold our hands out and then smack our hands

do you know something .. I didn't and don't find it abusive .. I don't look back and resent it either .. I have loving, sane and wonderful parents who have raised 4 fairly fabulous, although inordinately strange of course, children

Now I don't take the same approach to parenting but I really object to the whole abuse mentality .. it pisses me orf which is why I don't enter the fray

Well the smackers are in a minority and in the UK the law is on my side. NZ won't waste money on this. It will be like the UK seatbelt law and speed limit. If it's broken you may not get found out but it will deter those who might otherwise smack and a good thing too.

By the way do you think a husband should have a right to smack his wife within certain limits?

I'm surprised that most people seem to think smacking is something that is done when people lose their temper. Although I do occasionally smack my children, if I've lost my temper, I won't because I don't want to do it too hard. I will do it in a very carefully controlled manner though. I do prefer to use other forms of discipline but when my kids were eighteen months, making them stand in the naughty corner for trying to touch a live fire didn't really work!

My oldest is now five and I can't remember the last time I smacked him as there are many more appropriate forms of discipline I can use. I certainly won't use it as they get older.

In response to your question, Xenia, I do not think its okay for adults to smack each other. The whole point of smacking is that it communicates to a small child that something is negative when words are beyond them - you can't say that about adults. That also implies that you see smacking as a really violent and power-enforcing thing rather than a sharp tap on the hand (or wherever) to let a child know he/she has overstepped a mark. Hitting an adult really would have to be a forceful thing and yes, that would count as abuse.

Also - where are these 'Christian domestic discipline religious relationships'? I know Christians all over the world and don't know anyone who practices that! Most Christians I know would see that as totally against biblical teaching.

A certain brand of Christian, loads of them. Some take their children out of school to home educate in the US so they can whip them or cane them at home as the bible they say teachers. Others in the EU have brought test cases saying it breaches their religious freedoms not to be able to paddle their children with special instruments. Masses of them world wide. Dreadful business.

If it's right to slap a child other than in anger then I don't see why a husband can't do it to his wife either etc. It's just dreadful violence we should never countenance and thankfully is gradually getting banned worldwide.

where is smacking your children banned Xenia

just interested

ok I've found the netherlands so far

anywhere else?

In the UK if it leaves a mark. I think the Act was in 2004.

BB web site

"New smacking law comes into force

Parents in England and Wales who smack children so hard it leaves a mark will face up to five years in jail under new laws in force from Saturday.

Mild smacking is allowed under a "reasonable chastisement" defence against common assault.

But any punishment which causes visible bruising, grazes, scratches, minor swellings or cuts can face action.

The law is flawed and there should be a total ban on smacking, according to child protection charity the NSPCC.

It said the new law will only confuse parents and leave children still at risk of abuse.

It should be as wrong to hit a child as an adult

NSPCC boss Mary Marsh said: "There is a risk parents may choose to hit children on parts of their body where injury is less visible, such as the head, which can cause serious harm.

"Defining acceptable ways to hit children should become a thing of the past.

"It should be just as wrong to hit a child as it is to hit an adult." "

These "christians" who are saying the bible tells them to smack/beat/whip their children are incorrect. I always used to think "spare the rod, spoil the child" meant a good smack was needed. But have learned the rod talked about is the type used by a shepherd to guide their sheep, so rather a guiding, reasoned influence should be used to discipline children, from biblical viewpoint.

However for v. young children who can't process a situation and don't understand all the reasoning words yet, a smacked hand on occasion is probably the way to get their attention.

"Masses of them world wide."

actually I think you'll find it's a minority of them worldwide - that's why we hear about it because it makes "news".

fa, I am a Catholice. We certainly don't believe you have to beat children and most Christians don't but there is a very very large movement for it in conservative bits of the US and lots of groups in the UK. It is by no means a small lot I'm afraid. Many also believe it is a biblical imperative that wives submit to their husbands who may also physically chastise the wives.

"Many also believe it is a biblical imperative that wives submit to their husbands who may also physically chastise the wives."

I'll agree with the first bit of that

"Many also believe it is a biblical imperative that wives submit to their husbands" - as if you study that whole passage properly woman get a MUCH better deal out of than the men do. All we have to do is look after them, they have to love us as much as God loves the church - a much bigger ask.

The 2nd bit - I have to disagree that it's "many" of them that believe that husband physicallyh chastise their wives......again it's only a tiny majority.

You are probably right. I haven't done a statistically analysis but the internet is littered with Christian domestic discipline sites and Christian groups where that is a key issue and there are plenty of books on it.

Xenia is right about the hardline Christian child-beating contingent, there have been plenty of threads on MN referring to these lunatics. They believe the Bible not only commands that parents physically chastise their children, but also details how and with what implement it should be done.

Famous child-beating Christian fundamentalist evangelists include Garry Ezzo, Michael and Debi Pearl, James Dobson and many others. Their "ministries" are thriving and very influential, unfortunately.

Yep, we had the fundamentalist Christians on the other smacking thread too.

Fannyannie and kiwinat, well spoken.

Xenia, I was referring to the idea of wife beating being totally against Christian principles. As FA said, there is a huge onus in the bible placed on men to protect and love their wives.

And lol at the idea of people like James Dobson being described as 'child-beating Christian fundamentalist' Please get some perpsective and read some of his material.

Xenia - the internet is "littered" with controversial websites on all subject matter if you want to look for it - it's also littered with plenty of Christian sites that aren't as you described.

I have read a lot of his material! He's a psychopathic weirdo.

A couple of titbits from the eminent James Dobson:

"Pain is a marvelous purifier. . . It is not necessary to beat the child into submission; a little bit of pain goes a long way for a young child. However, the spanking should be of sufficient magnitude to cause the child to cry genuinely."
From Dare to Discipline, pages 6 and 7

"Some strong-willed children absolutely demand to be spanked, and their wishes should be granted. . . [T]wo or three stinging strokes on the legs or buttocks with a switch are usually sufficient to emphasize the point, 'You must obey me.'"
From The Strong-Willed Child, pp. 53-4.

Lovely stuff, isn't it?

also from the same man

"For a few children, spankings are simply not effective. The child who has attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), for example, may be even more wild and unmanageable after corporal punishment............. "Let me emphasize once more that children are unique. The only way to raise them correctly is to understand each boy or girl as an individual and design parenting techniques to fit the needs and characteristics of that particular child."

"For a few children", yes. As a sop to the members of his following who find the whole idea a bit repugnant, perhaps. For his mainstream view, and his recommendation for the vast majority of children: see my post below.

have any of you read Drs Sears, also christians? you are foolish if you tar all christians with the same brush.

i also find it a little scary that you belive that the internet, or indeed the opinions of mnetters, give a clear and accurate picture of what society is like. the internet is also littlered with sites detailing how to make bombs and encouraging terrorism, but I daresay you believe the majority of muslims to be upright, peace loving people don't you? - (or maybe you don't...also scary)